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ttspud

Pre 65 Future & Pre 65 Rules

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4 minutes ago, ttspud said:

@b40rt.  Routes and classes are "at the club's discretion".  If you want me to add some more 2 stroke classes to the 'example' classes, which 2 stroke ones would you like added?  

Why wouldn't you have similar ones ? Sprung 2t. Rigid 2t. Up to 200cc. Over 200cc. Gentleman 2t.  

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@B40rt.  I have added some 2 stroke classes for you; Sprung, Rigid, Sidecar and Clubman.  It is only an example, the expectation was that clubs would stay with whatever classes they have now, but if you think clubs should use the same classes if they can, then maybe that is right.  For now, the emphasis was on sub-class, but perhaps a wider discussion is needed.

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16 hours ago, ttspud said:

Hi TrialsRFun,  

First, thank you for the kind message, the information and the invite.  I fear the trials might be bit far away since I have to drive a fair way to collect my bike in the first place but yes, please do send me a private message and let me have some details.  The Pre-57 events look brilliant too with proper bikes and some Pre-65s also.  Awesome.

TTSpud 

Head up the M1 for the Taverners trials give them a try first whats to lose!

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17 hours ago, ttspud said:

@Greevesrob.  You can put a tube in a tubeless tyre if need be which is easy to do, they often are thicker and heavier, but no problem.  Yes, there is a clear distinction between modified and original bikes, two different approaches completely.

You can if you want it to keep coming off the rim ask me how I know. The point I was starting to make is that the totality original bike your rules are talking of don't exist or are in collections and don't get ridden.

Take my bike for example 1963 Greeves with your class rules frame, engine, carb ok. Exhaust is alloy so not allowed, Norton forks not leading link so not allowed and wheels are replica cub hubs with tubeless rear as got sick of messing with the bhc wheels that were fitted but they had alloy rims and were not original anyway.

So with your rules I might as well buy a Drayton frame kit and no one would get to see an actual pre65 bike as it doesn't fit in either category.

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Here is a slightly different perspective.... This is my 1st post outside of the Introduction thread. 

I have never been a Observed Trials rider. I have never had a bike built as a Trials bike. I now have acquired a 1957 AJS 18CS that is set up for Trials. It has probably been that way since 1964.

I enjoy looking at vintage bikes in a static display, watching, and hearing them perform would be even better. As a spectator, I would be interested in the bike.... not so much the rider. If I'm watching a vintage pre-65 event I would expect to be seeing pre-65 bikes, not a modern bike made to look pre-65. I would not expect the bike to be factory original, but I would expect the major parts to be made before 1965.

When I 1st began riding off road, we would strip all the street parts and pieces off to reduce weight, and to improve performance 1st, and prevent breakage 2nd. Then we would customize, with bars, tires, maybe seat, etc. As long as the customized changes were pre-65 in a pre-65 class, I see no problem, in fact as a spectator I would expect it, as long as it maintained the pre-65 look and function.

As far as cheating goes....I find it difficult to understand. How good can you feel with your performance, when you know you cheated? At the same time nobody should accuse someone else of cheating if they are following the rules.

My 2 cents,

Thanks

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@GreevesRob.  With the tyres, there is a thread a few down discussing exactly that; using an innertube with a Tubeless tyre.  Maybe have a look at that for some pointers and options.  The point is to try to keep the bikes original if possible, and everyone is then in the same boat. 

Some original bikes as described do get ridden in the trials that I ride in, including mine and friends of mine also, and they are hugely appreciated (the post just above makes that exact point and it is very true, as in it is nice to see them in a museum but much nicer to hear them and see them out there being ridden) by spectator and rider alike.  Many have dropped out over the decades of course but this may help to keep those bikes in and maybe bring some originals back in as well. 

Of course, many modified bikes today have everything modified, if you still have the original frame, engine, ignition, caburettor, clutch and so on, then you could revert to original or just ride as you are, you would be no different than you are now, in that you would just ride the same events in the same way against the same competition as before.  I wasn't really considering that many people would revert bikes back to original spec, but it is possible that that may happen for bikes such as yours.  Having a 'Specials' sub-class for bikes which would otherwise be eligible as an Original but have mixed make/model components, is maybe something to consider?

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@FullChoke.  Fantastic bike, the 500cc version of mine, and in exactly the same original pre65 spec as mine is, unchanged, it would be very nice to see it ridden in events as an Original bike.  Mine is ridden every year in competitive events, albeit in the easier routes but other better riders do attempt some of the harder routes on original bikes. Unfortunately, they are up against ultra modified bikes and cannot expect to win, but if they knew who was also on an original bike, at least they would know who they were really competing against. 

You are absolutely right, people look at the bike and not the rider.  My bike sounds great, it is still a long stroke rather than the harsher sound of the short stroke modifieds.  It is an original bike, and people enjoy seeing it every year, and each year it gets rarer.  It has a great history, I would like to see that continue alongside the few that are left, and hope to see others return if something like these rules can be put into practice.  It is not much to do really. 

Yes, about the 'cheating', it crept in, little by little, at the start it was 'hidden' but everyone knew it was happening yet it was not stopped.  Now it is not hidden largely because it has gone so far and there are so few original bikes left that if the rules as they were were enforced then there would be no riders left at some events.  There is now no fear at all in having broken the rules (ACU Handbook) because the rules have been long ignored.  We cannot go back, and no-one expects that.  But something like these rules would protect the bikes we have and hopefully bring some more in.  Great post though, very nice to hear that the original bikes are appreciated.

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I'm in the US, Oregon to be exact. I'm not sure about the rules here, but I think they may be followed closer to preserve the historical nature of the bikes and Trials riding back in the day.

As a spectator, you see a class event like Pre-65, and you take it at face value, I would think that interest could be lost, by both rider and spectator, if the classes are in name only. There needs to be definition. In motorcross the AHRMA doesn't allow some Pre-65 built bikes to be run in the Pre-65 class, they must be run in the Pre-68 class, if they are deemed to modern, even if original. Their handbook is large, you can see it online. I get the impression it is used, but I don't race so I don't know how close it is followed.

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Quote

As a spectator, you see a class event like Pre-65, and you take it at face value, I would think that interest could be lost, by both rider and spectator, if the classes are in name only. There needs to be definition. In motorcross the AHRMA doesn't allow some Pre-65 built bikes to be run in the Pre-65 class, they must be run in the Pre-68 class, if they are deemed to modern, even if original. Their handbook is large, you can see it online. I get the impression it is used, but I don't race so I don't know how close it is followed.

Absolutely right.  Yes, the UK version of Pre60, Pre65 and pre68 motorcross is very very stringent on originality and compliance also.  It is very very popular both with riders and with spectators, probably for that reason, that you know where you stand, spectators like to see original bikes and the bikes do not cost the earth.  It is a shame that pre65 trials got itself into such a mess in the UK by not following or enforcing any kind of compliance or originality.  Hopefully, without upsetting modified riders, that can be rectified somewhat both for riders and for spectators.  I do not know if you have seen some of the original footage of pre65 trials, I could not find the one I was thinking of but this one is quite good!!!  

 

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@Greevesrob, @Old Geezer, @Trialman, @djr.  

There seems to be a wide view, and I think correctly so, that bikes should not have to keep all components to the same make/model as that is exactly how pre65 trials originally was.  Just from the stories here, and from BSAOtter, it is fairly clear that it was very common to mix components from different bikes.  The hope with the rules is to protect the bikes we have and to bring back as many pre65 bikes as possible, and I think changing the rules to include bikes with original components from different make/model bikes as being in the Original sub-class (rather than as Specials or as Modified) is absolutely right and might help to do just that.  So, I have just changed the rules to reflect that, I believe that that is the consensus.

@Greevesrob, that means that your bike, except for the alloy exhaust, as far as I know from what you have said, is Pre65 Original.  Also, if you noticed, there is a Greeves being ridden in the video above...  Anyway, I hope that helps, it seems right to me, it is what was being spoken about by Old Geezer, djr and Trialman, so there it is.  

Edited by ttspud

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2 hours ago, ttspud said:

After remembering this:

1925 Indian At The 2018 Talmag

the rules have been altered to allow non-British bikes at the discretion of the Club.

All very good but !  did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal  and the rider and said bike  just got on with it ?  But your wanting the same small team  that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on  a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ?  just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !

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@ on it.  The idea within the rules is not to burden organisers with new routes or new classes.  So, the Talmag, as the example you reference, would not need to change any of its classes or routes to follow the rules.  It would simply request that riders indicate whether they are riding a Modified or an Original when they enter, to 'ideally' have Original bikes checked for compliance on the day, and then to include the sub-class letter (O or M) alongside the rider in the results so that riders can see who they are actually competing against. That's it.  In relation to the Talmag, it is probably between 20 and 50 original bikes out of a total entry of about 200, something like that, the rest obviously Modified.  It may be that a first step would be just to let riders self-certify on entry to see how many bikes actually are claiming to be original as well as exploring how difficult it will be to check them.  Others, in the days where scrutineering was normal, would know more about how many people try to 'hide' modifications but since no-one is going to exclude a modified bike anyway, I see very little point in riders of modified bikes trying to claim that they are original.  I am happy anyway, the idea of the rules is to help the sport retain or increase the original pre65 entry, and to increase existing rider's enjoyment by allowing them to see who is on a similar original bike as well as increasing the enjoyment for spectators.

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4 hours ago, on it said:

All very good but !  did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal  and the rider and said bike  just got on with it ?  But your wanting the same small team  that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on  a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ?  just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !

Think your being a bit unfair, the way I'm reading this and the original post from 2017, is ttspud will be scrutininneering  the bikes ?

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