Vertigo, E10 fuel

[goreboy]

Hiya,

anyone tried the e10 unleaded in their vertigo in the Uk, good or bad opinion?

does it make any difference over E5 given it’s got 2stroke mixed in? 
 

though I would ask before I tried it, been using super unleaded e5 until now, but it getting harder to find. 
 

cheers

[Tiewrap]

Mine is very sensitive to knocking, so I will not even try E10. And I'm not in the UK.

[Robonthemoor]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:12 PM, goreboy said:

Hiya,

anyone tried the e10 unleaded in their vertigo in the Uk, good or bad opinion?

does it make any difference over E5 given it’s got 2stroke mixed in? 
 

though I would ask before I tried it, been using super unleaded e5 until now, but it getting harder to find. 
 

cheers

Shell Vmax fuel

[fairlie]

Been told the rubber seals can swell when using E10 ?

Might be incorrect , but a guy showed me a fuel pump assembly and the big rubber gasket was miles oversize due to what was described as E10 fuel . 

[ChrisCH]

1 hour ago, fairlie said:

Been told the rubber seals can swell when using E10 ?

Might be incorrect , but a guy showed me a fuel pump assembly and the big rubber gasket was miles oversize due to what was described as E10 fuel . 

The problem is that so much of what is circulating is opinion, not fact and a lot of the opinion has a basis only in nonsense.  Ethanol attracts water and as such can cause some materials to have issues with swelling.  There are lots of sorts of "rubber".  It is therefore really important if you want the truth and an objective fact based decision of what fuels to use in what engines to get to the details.  The easy way out is the lazy way and just blame E10 for everything and you will find no shortage of people that want to do that.  Logically if ethanol is giving problems then E5 is going to be problematic but slightly less so.  The shift from 5% to 10% is not going to give rise to a lot of the problems that are being attributed to it.

We have had E5 for a very long time and it is only the increase to 10 that has seen the nonsense start.  A simple answer therefore is to stick to an E5 fuel which has a higher octane rating and a lower percentage of ethanol.  If that has worked OK up until now it will continue to do so.  The higher octane is neither here nor there and works fine.  My lawnmower runs on Shell V Power because it is what I buy for the trials bikes and so it is what is in the can so it is what I put in the mower.  I am too lazy and disinterested to buy seperate lawmower fuel to save 50p a year.

The majority of people are not even aware that unleaded has changed and just fill the car up like they have for years.  As best I can see there is no epidemic of cars failing as a result, in fact there appears to be no issue whatsoever.  The doom mongers predictions of the need to replace fule lines and pumps wholesale has not happened.  But - of course - plenty of Internet reports of "a mate" who has had a problem.

I find it hard to believe a modern bike like a Vertigo would be manufactured with materials that are incompatible with petrol from a filling station and therefore require specialist fuel that is all but unobtainable anywhere.  Such a difficult bike to refuel would be unlikley to find much of a market.  I have a few friends that have Vertigo and none of them buy fuel mail order, none use Aspen or other specialist fuels.  They all buy at the filling station.  My TRS runs on V Power which is E5.  The manual says "no ethanol" but it runs on E5 and has done since it was new in 2017, so five years of ethanol have done it no harm.

The Ducati forums were full of cranks and crackpots that predicted the end of the world with E10 and it fooled me enough to research it.  Meantime the wife's Monster runs just fine on E10.  I don't have a Vertigo but do like them and I am thinking about it as next bike.  I am pretty sure it will be OK on the V Power that the TRS runs on.  The wife's Beta likes the high octane rating too.  Not sure I can actually see a problem here.....

[fairlie]

21 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

The problem is that so much of what is circulating is opinion, not fact and a lot of the opinion has a basis only in nonsense.  Ethanol attracts water and as such can cause some materials to have issues with swelling.  There are lots of sorts of "rubber".  It is therefore really important if you want the truth and an objective fact based decision of what fuels to use in what engines to get to the details.  The easy way out is the lazy way and just blame E10 for everything and you will find no shortage of people that want to do that.  Logically if ethanol is giving problems then E5 is going to be problematic but slightly less so.  The shift from 5% to 10% is not going to give rise to a lot of the problems that are being attributed to it.

We have had E5 for a very long time and it is only the increase to 10 that has seen the nonsense start.  A simple answer therefore is to stick to an E5 fuel which has a higher octane rating and a lower percentage of ethanol.  If that has worked OK up until now it will continue to do so.  The higher octane is neither here nor there and works fine.  My lawnmower runs on Shell V Power because it is what I buy for the trials bikes and so it is what is in the can so it is what I put in the mower.  I am too lazy and disinterested to buy seperate lawmower fuel to save 50p a year.

The majority of people are not even aware that unleaded has changed and just fill the car up like they have for years.  As best I can see there is no epidemic of cars failing as a result, in fact there appears to be no issue whatsoever.  The doom mongers predictions of the need to replace fule lines and pumps wholesale has not happened.  But - of course - plenty of Internet reports of "a mate" who has had a problem.

I find it hard to believe a modern bike like a Vertigo would be manufactured with materials that are incompatible with petrol from a filling station and therefore require specialist fuel that is all but unobtainable anywhere.  Such a difficult bike to refuel would be unlikley to find much of a market.  I have a few friends that have Vertigo and none of them buy fuel mail order, none use Aspen or other specialist fuels.  They all buy at the filling station.  My TRS runs on V Power which is E5.  The manual says "no ethanol" but it runs on E5 and has done since it was new in 2017, so five years of ethanol have done it no harm.

The Ducati forums were full of cranks and crackpots that predicted the end of the world with E10 and it fooled me enough to research it.  Meantime the wife's Monster runs just fine on E10.  I don't have a Vertigo but do like them and I am thinking about it as next bike.  I am pretty sure it will be OK on the V Power that the TRS runs on.  The wife's Beta likes the high octane rating too.  Not sure I can actually see a problem here.....

Yeah , fair enough , might be nothing in it , but I'm not taking the risk unless it's necessary .

I have used E10 in my bikes and ancient car when I couldn't get E5 , however I tried to get them filled with E5 before I left them for any length of time .

There is some fuel stabiliser thing you can buy that is kinder to rubber seals ?. Is it worth buying , i don't know .

[ChrisCH]

1 hour ago, fairlie said:

Yeah , fair enough , might be nothing in it , but I'm not taking the risk unless it's necessary .

I have used E10 in my bikes and ancient car when I couldn't get E5 , however I tried to get them filled with E5 before I left them for any length of time .

There is some fuel stabiliser thing you can buy that is kinder to rubber seals ?. Is it worth buying , i don't know .

There are a range of fuel stabilisers available.  The idea seems to be that when you leave ethanol/petrol mixes for a long time there are problems.  Since ethanol absorbs water there is some logic to this, but all the things I have seen somewhat gloss over that or emphasise things that do not seem to happen.  Aspen is designed specifically for long term stability and storage and is sold by garden machinery places where you leave fuel for a period of time.  All I can offer is my own experience of the mower which has no problems at all and sits all winter in a shed.

I am sure there are some features of ethanol mixes that need to be understood but the huge amount of drivel just reminds me of the same nonsense over unleaded.  I think you are sensible to use an E5 if you know the vehicle is going to be stood for a long time - I would probably do the same to be honest.  My road bike runs E10 and I really don't give it any thought at all, but it is under cover and in the dry when not in use.  All petrol will gel if you leave it long enough.  I had a VFR that did it years ago.  Petrol goes "stale" too and it can make it hard to start the engine, but you really shouldn't leave engines that long - they need a run now and then and for vehicles with a battery that needs a start up to charge from time to time.  Thermostats can stick if left too long.  Really any petrol engine needs a warm up and a run at least once a month in my opinion and past experience.

[andydown01]

Ive just had to replace my fuel filter in my 2020 vertigo as it was blocked with black bits as the in tank hoses were breaking down needles to say ive replaced the hoses too  they need to be NBR/NBR hose 

[ChrisCH]

14 hours ago, andydown01 said:

Ive just had to replace my fuel filter in my 2020 vertigo as it was blocked with black bits as the in tank hoses were breaking down needles to say ive replaced the hoses too  they need to be NBR/NBR hose 

Have you had the tank off and looked in there?  I only ask as my old TRS carb blocked with "black bits" several times and the black bits were in the tank and could not have come from the fuel hose unless the previous owner had done something weird to get the fuel to run uphill.  The last time I had it cleaned I ultrasounded it and the shop mechanic replaced the hose and threw away the filter as (in his opinion) the filters are the problem as they break down after a while.

I would have thought a 2020 bike should be made with components that are fully OK with standard fuel.  I have not had much to do with Vertigo (I like the look of them).

The issue of the strange black bits in my TRS was cured by trading the bike in and buying a newer one (sorry if anyone ended up with my old one).  This one has been OK and I have not changed fuel or oil or any other variables so it was almost certainly something that the previous owner had done.

[ChrisCH]

Sorry - thinking out loud now.  It just struck me that it is possible the fuel can might be a source of contamination as they are cheap Chinese junk and the cap and O ring are probably old junk that might be a source of black material.  I mix in a mixing jug but some people I am sure just put a shot of 2T in the can.

Just a thought.