I Stand Corrected

[alan bechard]

I stand corrected on my interpretation of the rules, or at least my belief in what the rules said.

AMA supplemental rules for observed Trials 2005 edition (same as 2004) which both TI and STRA follow, and which can be viewed at the AMA directlink site state under 6,b,4

Definition of a "failure" or 5

"The rider does not have both hands on the handlebar when footing while stationary."

So, if you want to reach out and grab a tree with your hands and pull you and the bike up, you can, so long as your feet are not on the ground and you are not stationary, but really if you are pulling yourself up the hill, that kind of means that you are not stationary.

You can also sit there and maintain balance and reach down and pull the tape out of your rear wheel etc. I guess, just so long as you do not dab.

My apologies to anyone that I confused on this issue.

On a personal note, I find it ludicrous that I can kill my engine, and push my bike out of the section using my feet and hands so long as I do not stop and this is not considered a failure in the section. Seems to me that we have went astray and I do not see where these rules came to be like this.

Oh, and I get a 5 if I am stopped at the bottom of a hill with my foot down on a one and I reach up and push my glasses back on my nose or wipe the sweat from my forehead.

Is that what we want / wanted for rules?

I owe Jim Watson a drink of his choosing upon our next meeting.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Dead engine with any support other than the tires is a 5 Al

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Bank, tree, rock, mantaining an upright position and keeping some sort of control. 3 points

Ground, Loss of control, possibly both feet on one side of the bike and would have to pick it up off the floor. 5 points.

Definition of a fault.

Each contact of any part of the rider or machine (with the exception of the Tires, footrest, skid plate) with the ground or an obstical (tree, rock etc)

[elkay]

In NATC, both situations would be 5s.

Failure: one of many ways-- "The handlebar of the motorcycle touches the ground.

[alan bechard]

Dead engine with any support other than the tires is a 5 Al

Not in the 05 rules Ishy. 04 yes, but in 05 they added back in that you can push your way out of the section.

http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/supps/2005/NATC.pdf

6,B,9

They added in the Words "without forward motion"

sooooooo

With my engine dead, as long as I have forward motion I can push pull or drag my bike out of the section with hands and feet.

[jtt]

I can push pull or drag my bike out of the section with hands and feet.

I did alot of this technique this past weekend, as elkay can attest

Does seem rediculous that you can kill you engine, but get a "5" for hopping back

[bikespace]

In fact. I'll delete my post, because now that I realise that your rules are so different to ours, I'm in danger of hijacking the thread.

I'll shove it somewhere else.

Incidentally, my point was that there is no rule in TSR22a that you could give a 5 for as long as the rider kept both hands on the bar and stayed astride the bike. He seems to be able to lie on the floor etc etc. We don't have the handlebar rule either.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Still a five, for killing the motor while footing.

Says failure definitions, The engine stops while footing or...........

If some dodger used that wording to get out of a five, then it needs to changed, this is why trials marshals have to go through more and more each year because un sporting individuals will try every dodge in the book to get out of a five for failing.

[alan bechard]

Still a five,  for killing the motor while footing.

Says failure definitions, The engine stops while footing or...........

If some dodger used that wording to get out of a five, then it needs to changed,  this is why trials marshals have to go through more and more each year because un sporting individuals will try every dodge in the book to get out of a five for failing.

Well, as I read the rule as written in the 05, as long as I am pushing and making forward motion, I can push with a dead engine. And if you refer too the 04 rule it was very clearly written without the words forward motion that were added in 05. So, whether you or I agree is one thing, but I can say with absolute confidence, that as I was being briefed at the TN nationals by the NATC sporting steward Tony Bussing, just prior to observing, you can push your way out of the section with a dead engine.

And I happen to like the 04 rule much better FWIW.

I also do not think I should get a 5 for pushing my glasses up if I am stopped with a foot down, and think it is ludicrous that I can "dab" with my hands, but that is just my opinion, and I have voiced it too my NATC reps from both clubs that I belong too and I will voice it too you in your status as "Ambassodor" I believe with the NATC, and hope that it could be changed. (did I just ask for a rule change? Something I hate.)

And while this BB may not be the place to discuss this type thing as some folks will be sure to tell me, it is the only avenue that I am aware of that is open and available to the public as the public is prohibited from attending the NATC meeting itself and seeing first hand what goes on and how the decisions are arrived at.

If I was betting, there were some very good reasons as to why that was added in there, but for the life of me, I cannot figure them out.

[bulsher]

Alan, I am pretty sure if you use your hands for an assist it is a 5, and I agree on the footing issue!

[bikespace]

I think the two separate parts of that rule should be split up to avoid confusion. I reckon it's badly worded, but I think the intention was that footing with the engine stopped would be a 5.

I reckon the forward motion bit was added for the second part, so if a rider was freewheeling down a section and clips his bar on a tree, or sumps out on something for example it would not be classed as a 5, as long as he starts the bike without footing.

Bad wording.

[jim w.]

Well, as I read the rule as written in the 05, as long as I am pushing and making forward motion, I can push with a dead engine.  And if you refer too the 04 rule it was very clearly written without the words forward motion that were added in 05. So, whether you or I agree is one thing, but I can say with absolute confidence, that as I was being briefed at the TN nationals by the NATC sporting steward Tony Bussing, just prior to observing, you can push your way out of the section with a dead engine.

Alan: The words were added because the NATC/AMA follows the world Trials rules, and that is how they are worded. You might need to ask the FIM to change their rule on a dead engine. Jim Watson

[alan bechard]

Anyone on here related too the FIM?

Jim, does the NATC follow all the FIM rules?

And this came up as well, Tony, or Jim, or another NATC official, if the guy is pushing his bike on a dead engine, maintaining forward motion, then jumps up on the pegs, takes his hands off the bars, reaches down and pulls out his kickstarter and starts the bike and drives on through the section.

Assume he pushed once with each foot for a two with the dead engine.

Edited May 4, 2005 by Alan Bechard

[pa.]

Our rules in Australia are...

Engine stopping whilst rider stationary and rider footing or leaning. 5

Allows for the rider to restart if they are good enough (managed it once myself) but not to be able to push the bike out of the section.

The handlebar of the motorcycle touches the ground. 5

Hey if your handlebar hits the dirt your outa here.

Rider does not have both hands on the handlebar when he foot whilst stationery. 5

The reasons for the hand not on the handlebar rule was to stop riders repositioning the bike by using a hand to move the rear wheel into a new position.

I think we have good rideable rules here.

[jim w.]

Jim, does the NATC follow all the FIM rules?

And this came up as well, Tony, or Jim, or another NATC official, if the guy is pushing his bike on a dead engine, maintaining forward motion, then jumps up on the pegs, takes his hands off the bars, reaches down and pulls out his kickstarter and starts the bike and drives on through the section.

Assume he pushed once with each foot for a two with the dead engine.

Alan: Yes the NATC follows the FIM rules, with a few exceptions, one that comes to mind is NATC gives 10 points for a blank space (missed section) on a score card, FIM it is 20 points.

I would call that a 2, because of the way the rule reads.

I may be getting to old but when I started riding back in the 70's What is called no-stop now. The rule was the same, If you could maintain forward motion with a dead engine you could push out of the section and it was not a 5. ( the bikes did not run as well as the modern bikes do now, and they would die more frequently.) At least that is what I remember. But I am getting older. Jim Watson