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Tom23

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  1. On 3/15/2021 at 11:35 AM, ludde said:

    I haven't written anything here in years but now I have information that I think some will be interested in. This will be quite technical so bear with me. I am writing this from the standpoint that you know how the use the HRC software to change the mapping in the ECU. More info to come. 

    Background
    Almost a year ago now I came across some software developed to flash the ECU of different Honda motorcycles. Being an engineer I started to wonder if it would be possible to use on the 4rt. I have always been annoyed that the HRC software only lets you modify fuel and spark advance in relation to some maps that are unknown. After some research I found that the flash software monitors if the ignition (12V) is on to know if the ECU is alive or not. Well, the 4rt does not have a battery and the red 4P connector in the harness which you use to communicate with the ECU does not have any 12V or ground wires. So an adapter harness needed to be created. The connectors are Sumitomo HM090 series. I used the 12V and ground from the black 2P connectors the you use to power the ECU and then made a harness with a 4P connector which looks like this.
    honda-dlc.png.ac3a73bde9d69a5928465d3355a1c9b2.png

    It worked! I was able to read a 32kB bin file from the ECU. Having had 4rts since they were launched I had a couple of throttle bodies laying around. So a total of 5 bins were read. Now the big job of trying to interpret the hex code started. I won't bore you with all the details so here is what has been found out so far.

    Information

    ECUs read (as of now) 16400-NN4-XXX
    G11, H01, J11, L11, L72, M11, M62, M71, P01, P71
     

    There are 2 main softwares used since 2009 I think, NN4D101 and NN4G202. Non of the software send any diagnostic information via the K-line sadly enough. 
    NN4D101: Switchable between MAP1 and MAP2 on the handlebar. (3ED/4ED)
    HRC programmable
    1 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
    2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 
    NN4G202: Street legal version (ED/2ED)
    NOT HRC programmable
    2 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
    2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 

    Fuel 
    2 maps, one based on RPM and IAP (inlet air pressure), one based on RPM and TPS (throttle position sensor). No clue yet to what the numbers mean other than higher number is more fuel. 
    How they work in relation to each other I am not sure of right now. WIP
    I think there is also some kind of acceleration enrichment. WIP
    692378242_iap1.jpg.e90dce75be4f8994f5b0a826c74bbcf1.jpg919058189_tps1.jpg.39b3a7a5f0796561a5eaca7fdfb0e30e.jpg

    Spark advance

    1 map, based on RPM and TPS. The numbers are still a bit of a guess but they seems to be about right. 
    There is also a transient spark advance which adds or subtracts from the main map. This is active when you snap the throttle and the engine is not able to keep up with what you are demanding. 
    2090294042_ign1.jpg.35bf97e344563ca8ebf12d3293637669.jpg873347999_transientignition.thumb.JPG.a5cd4f689a79381e1cd6aa75d2990e8b.JPG

    Other functions

    RPM Limiter, looks like 3 different limiters. Only one has been confirmed. 

     

    The different softwares
    G11

    2009-2012 Montesa ED/2ED 
    This is the oldest software I have right now. 
    Is very similar to H01 but has less fuel since the Montesa still was 250cc.

    H01
    2010 HRC RTL260F
    This software has two very different maps. Map 1 is you standard map providing as much power as possible. 
    Map 2 is a very soft map with lowered spark advance and a low transient spark as well. This takes away all the punch the engine has but is great in slippery conditions.
    You have to rev the engine if you need some power but the traction is great.

    J11
    2014 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED 
    Very similar to the H01 softwares Map 1 with small changes to fuel and ignition. Probably due the difference in exhaust muffler between the Honda RTL and the Montesa.

    L11
    2016 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
    For 2016 a new fuel pump was fitted which changed the fuel and ignition maps a lot. 

    L72
    2016 Montesa 300RR 4ED
    The 2016 300RR has a 2 ring piston compared to the later 300RR which has a three ring piston (the same as the 260 but bigger).
    Therefore this software has a unique settings which is different to both L11 and M71.
    Map1 has lower spark advance on small throttle openings making it softer than map2.
    Map2 is the power map.
    The 2016 300RR I have seen also had a HRC setting which adds even more spark advance to map2.

    M11
    2017-2018 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
    Same as L11 except for changes to the homologated map (street legal). Probably due to the change in rear sprocket from 36 to 41 teeth.

    M62
    2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 2ED
    Same as M11 but has more fuel in the TPS map from 50% and up.

    M71
    2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 4ED
    Map 1 is the same as M62 
    Map 2 has the same fuel as Map 1 but a little higher spark advance to get more power from the engine.
    My PTB had a setting in the HRC program which made Map 1 softer increasing the difference between the maps.

    P01
    2020-2022 RTL300R
    Uses the same settings as the P71. 

    P61
    2020-2022 Montesa 301RR ED/2ED
    This software has a strange mix between the M62 software and the P71 software. I have not tested it so not sure if it makes any difference.

    P71
    2020-2022 Montesa 301RR 3ED/4ED
    Interestingly the 301RR software is much more similar to the H01 software than the M71 form the 300RR. I am wondering if HRC made the settings for the 301RR but Montesa in Spain did the 300RR?
    Map 1 is the power map with a quite aggressive transient spark map which adds quite a lot of advance.
    Map 2 is the softer map with less fuel, lower spark advance and lower transient spark map as well, compared to Map 1.

    On 3/15/2021 at 11:35 AM, ludde said:

    I haven't written anything here in years but now I have information that I think some will be interested in. This will be quite technical so bear with me. I am writing this from the standpoint that you know how the use the HRC software to change the mapping in the ECU. More info to come. 

    Background
    Almost a year ago now I came across some software developed to flash the ECU of different Honda motorcycles. Being an engineer I started to wonder if it would be possible to use on the 4rt. I have always been annoyed that the HRC software only lets you modify fuel and spark advance in relation to some maps that are unknown. After some research I found that the flash software monitors if the ignition (12V) is on to know if the ECU is alive or not. Well, the 4rt does not have a battery and the red 4P connector in the harness which you use to communicate with the ECU does not have any 12V or ground wires. So an adapter harness needed to be created. The connectors are Sumitomo HM090 series. I used the 12V and ground from the black 2P connectors the you use to power the ECU and then made a harness with a 4P connector which looks like this.
    honda-dlc.png.ac3a73bde9d69a5928465d3355a1c9b2.png

    It worked! I was able to read a 32kB bin file from the ECU. Having had 4rts since they were launched I had a couple of throttle bodies laying around. So a total of 5 bins were read. Now the big job of trying to interpret the hex code started. I won't bore you with all the details so here is what has been found out so far.

    Information

    ECUs read (as of now) 16400-NN4-XXX
    G11, H01, J11, L11, L72, M11, M62, M71, P01, P71
     

    There are 2 main softwares used since 2009 I think, NN4D101 and NN4G202. Non of the software send any diagnostic information via the K-line sadly enough. 
    NN4D101: Switchable between MAP1 and MAP2 on the handlebar. (3ED/4ED)
    HRC programmable
    1 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
    2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 
    NN4G202: Street legal version (ED/2ED)
    NOT HRC programmable
    2 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
    2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 

    Fuel 
    2 maps, one based on RPM and IAP (inlet air pressure), one based on RPM and TPS (throttle position sensor). No clue yet to what the numbers mean other than higher number is more fuel. 
    How they work in relation to each other I am not sure of right now. WIP
    I think there is also some kind of acceleration enrichment. WIP
    692378242_iap1.jpg.e90dce75be4f8994f5b0a826c74bbcf1.jpg919058189_tps1.jpg.39b3a7a5f0796561a5eaca7fdfb0e30e.jpg

    Spark advance

    1 map, based on RPM and TPS. The numbers are still a bit of a guess but they seems to be about right. 
    There is also a transient spark advance which adds or subtracts from the main map. This is active when you snap the throttle and the engine is not able to keep up with what you are demanding. 
    2090294042_ign1.jpg.35bf97e344563ca8ebf12d3293637669.jpg873347999_transientignition.thumb.JPG.a5cd4f689a79381e1cd6aa75d2990e8b.JPG

    Other functions

    RPM Limiter, looks like 3 different limiters. Only one has been confirmed. 

     

    The different softwares
    G11

    2009-2012 Montesa ED/2ED 
    This is the oldest software I have right now. 
    Is very similar to H01 but has less fuel since the Montesa still was 250cc.

    H01
    2010 HRC RTL260F
    This software has two very different maps. Map 1 is you standard map providing as much power as possible. 
    Map 2 is a very soft map with lowered spark advance and a low transient spark as well. This takes away all the punch the engine has but is great in slippery conditions.
    You have to rev the engine if you need some power but the traction is great.

    J11
    2014 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED 
    Very similar to the H01 softwares Map 1 with small changes to fuel and ignition. Probably due the difference in exhaust muffler between the Honda RTL and the Montesa.

    L11
    2016 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
    For 2016 a new fuel pump was fitted which changed the fuel and ignition maps a lot. 

    L72
    2016 Montesa 300RR 4ED
    The 2016 300RR has a 2 ring piston compared to the later 300RR which has a three ring piston (the same as the 260 but bigger).
    Therefore this software has a unique settings which is different to both L11 and M71.
    Map1 has lower spark advance on small throttle openings making it softer than map2.
    Map2 is the power map.
    The 2016 300RR I have seen also had a HRC setting which adds even more spark advance to map2.

    M11
    2017-2018 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
    Same as L11 except for changes to the homologated map (street legal). Probably due to the change in rear sprocket from 36 to 41 teeth.

    M62
    2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 2ED
    Same as M11 but has more fuel in the TPS map from 50% and up.

    M71
    2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 4ED
    Map 1 is the same as M62 
    Map 2 has the same fuel as Map 1 but a little higher spark advance to get more power from the engine.
    My PTB had a setting in the HRC program which made Map 1 softer increasing the difference between the maps.

    P01
    2020-2022 RTL300R
    Uses the same settings as the P71. 

    P61
    2020-2022 Montesa 301RR ED/2ED
    This software has a strange mix between the M62 software and the P71 software. I have not tested it so not sure if it makes any difference.

    P71
    2020-2022 Montesa 301RR 3ED/4ED
    Interestingly the 301RR software is much more similar to the H01 software than the M71 form the 300RR. I am wondering if HRC made the settings for the 301RR but Montesa in Spain did the 300RR?
    Map 1 is the power map with a quite aggressive transient spark map which adds quite a lot of advance.
    Map 2 is the softer map with less fuel, lower spark advance and lower transient spark map as well, compared to Map 1.

    Hi there,

    Can you show us the adapter harness you made to do the trick ? And wire sceme of the harness so we can make it to.

 
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