May 19, 201511 yr 1 ; The escort was at one time the sales leader world wide ... (because Ford sold them cheap to utility companies , fleet vehicles and rental Co.'s ) It was a sound basic little car no more no less ... 2 ; The Escorts you refer to ( Rally cars , limited run option packages , etc.) Have nothing to do with the daily driver escort !!!! 3 ; The Honda TL125 was / is probably the sales leader EVER for a trials bike .... I'd be willing to bet there are more of them still running than most trials bike builders have ever built/sold ... 4 ;All of the new bikes we can buy now are made in small #'s , not most manufactures bread and butter ... Most of our trials bike builders make FANTASTIC Serious enduro bikes and other toys . 5 ; We are a extremely small market on a international business scale . CAN WE NOT BE HAPPY TO HAVE THE VERTIGO !!! It has proven itself on the international stage long before it's release to the public !!! To my knowledge none of the recent new brands have even attempted to do what Dougie and crew have DONE !!! 6 ; I hope them the very best in our market , and I'd love to try one ... Rant over .... Glenn TL 125s must have sold a lot more elsewhere than they did in the UK., there were rarely more than 1 or 2 at a trial in this area. Regarding the escorts. A lot of the cars that achieved success at up to national and some at international events were based on production cars and used standard body shells. Many at club rally level were stripped out and tuned production cars, often having clocked up quite high mileages as road cars before being converted to rally use. Quite a lot of lads I knew used the same car for daily driving as they did in rallies. Same comment for minis, and a few other makes. Same comment for saloon car racing When trials started they were a test of the reliability of standard motorcycles with the aim of showing customers that if they could complete the Scott, SSDT etc then they were a good bike to buy for daily use. The sport has now changed, perhaps the last links with road bikes being broken in the late 1960s. Something would be amiss if bikes specially developed for the SSDT could not do their job. The Douglas my grandfather used as a daily bike was identical to those used in trials, the BSAs my father used were near identical to those use in trials.
May 20, 201511 yr My Great Grampa worked as a young man for Indian , His first Indian had pedals! ...The photo is on my toolbox or I'd scan it for you ... Escorts ... Based on a production shell ... WELL HELL YES !!! we'll just add a bit of tubing here and there to increase the structural stability ... And maybe we can use the block with a few tweaks ... the stock tranny ? lets see when it will break ... Shelve the stock suspension , I know a guy ... I've been building race cars of all types , from Spec miata's to winternational final's cars ... MONEY and R&D is the tool !!!! A 1.6l miata I built held the lap record @ Roebling road race track for about 3 years , I built a 440 sixpack challenger F stock car that got a invite to the winternationals in it's first season (only to redlight by 11thou of a second in the final !!!!) On that one I spent about 40 hrs @ palmdale dragstrip playing with the suspension to get the 60 foot times where they had to be . (renting a dragstrip for a weekend is fun ) And I still stand by my comment that the TL125 is most likely the most produced/sold trials bike world wide (international market !) No doubt most of them never saw a trials event , but they are everywhere .... You meet the nicest people on a Honda .... So Stuff that in your crack pipe and light up ... And what do you do for a living , besides p*** people off ? Cheers , Glenn And we just finished a resto on a works Mini Cooper winning Rally car , you know, velocity stacks for the carb thru the firewall , and a rollcage/frame that makes getting into the drivers seat a 3 minute ordeal ...But get the clutch set up right and from about 0 to 80 , it's will take out just about anything , (unless a front wheel lifts ! ) Edited May 20, 201511 yr by axulsuv
May 20, 201511 yr Glen, You seem to be getting a bit wound up over this. The fundamental difference between the mini/escort/trials bikes of the past and the Vertigo is their heritage. The Mini etc were designed and built as a road car for the masses, variants were then developed for competition, the degree of modification / variation depending on what was permitted by the category of competition they were used in. The Vertigo on the other hand was conceived from the very beginning as a competition trials bike. My point was despite this heritage and success at SSDT etc will it ever be a volume seller.
May 20, 201511 yr Volume is irrelevant to Manuel Jane I suspect, if the products quality, hopefully financial success will follow.
May 20, 201511 yr Glen, You seem to be getting a bit wound up over this. The fundamental difference between the mini/escort/trials bikes of the past and the Vertigo is their heritage. The Mini etc were designed and built as a road car for the masses, variants were then developed for competition, the degree of modification / variation depending on what was permitted by the category of competition they were used in. The Vertigo on the other hand was conceived from the very beginning as a competition trials bike. My point was despite this heritage and success at SSDT etc will it ever be a volume seller. Where and when did any of Vertigo's aims say "volume sales"?
May 20, 201511 yr Interesting read, so are we comparing trials bikes to works rally cars in the ssdt chat? Well if so, my mont is the escort, bou's bike loosley based on a production model. The vertigo would be the lancia. Build the competition version then homologate it. I'd have the lancia any day of the week....? Edited May 20, 201511 yr by jrsunt
May 20, 201511 yr B40rt may be right, the Vertigo may just be a serious hobby for MJ but they have displayed a lower spec model (Ice Hell?) that suggests they intend to go for more sales than just a few top spec bikes. ND Vertigo may never have used the term volume sales but my previous comment to B40rt suggests they do. Also some comments made by DL before we ever saw a bike suggest the eventual aim is to sell a fair number. MJ perhaps foresaw the demise of GG and felt there will be a worthwhile sales gap to fill. Very recently I head from a multi marque trials dealer that only two brands were safe. I don't think he was including Mont / Honda when he made that statement, but if MJ has come to the same conclusion he may feel a substantial market will open up as other marques disappear.
May 21, 201511 yr Author Very recently I head from a multi marque trials dealer that only two brands were safe. I don't think he was including Mont / Honda when he made that statement What are you trying to say ? I certainly wouldn't put Honda in the same league as the other Spanish or Italian trials manufacturer The Barcelona factory is of strategic worldwide manufacturing importance to the Honda Corp, the trials arm is just a mere consequence of it However it does give them some cheap world titles and a reinvigorated 260 cc bike which sells all the can make at a very controlled price point - so I'm sure that they turn a buck on every sale, especially with streamlined distribution costs Dadof2 I think you need to go back to business school Edited May 21, 201511 yr by johnnyboxer
May 21, 201511 yr What are you trying to say ? I certainly wouldn't put Honda in the same league as the other Spanish or Italian trials manufacturer The Barcelona factory is of strategic worldwide manufacturing importance to the Honda Corp, the trials arm is just a mere consequence of it However it does give them some cheap world titles and a reinvigorated 260 cc bike which sells all the can make at a very controlled price point - so I'm sure that they turn a buck on every sale, especially with streamlined distribution costs Dadof2 I think you need to go back to business school Why commenting on what a dealer said has to do with business school is beyond me. What the dealer meant was that of all the trials bike makes being sold he felt only 2 were a safe long term bet, as in continuing to be manufactured. When he made that statement he was probably aware that GG Spain and GG UK were about to issue the press releases they did. He did name the two makes he felt were safe but as I wrote previously I don't think he was even considering mont honda at all (as safe or unsafe). If he was including mont honda in the safe group his assessment of manufacturers futures is even graver than I took it to be. Very shortly afterwards I heard from another well in the know source whose thoughts were very similar. He went nearly as far as to suggest that another make may just about as well pack it in now. I am not prepared to name the makes or people as although I was not sworn to confidentiality the comments were made in private conversation. Edited May 21, 201511 yr by dadof2
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