Sorry to be a pain but having just changed from Two new 4rt's over the last eight years with there comprehensive manuals, I've just gone to a two stroke Vertigo with not manual. I believe you may be the person who could assist.
I've recently fitted a Mikuni VM26 to my 1979 Sherpa 250 , unfortunately it appears to be run a tad rich.
Its running a 35 pilot jet and a 130 main, I've worked the circlip on the needle all the way to the top notch and althought its now running a lot better its still rich and requires very little choke.
What jet sizes are being used by anyone else with a Vm26 on a 250?
Suppose I've been lucky really as my 2014 4rt has only just required its fork seals replacing. I have changed the oil before but just drained and refilled with the "required" amount less a tad for the oil that could not be drained.
So whilst stripping the full leg down to replace the seals and cleaning each part before replacing I thought I would rebuild the correct way by using the measurement of the oil level rather than the amount. Left "Spring" leg fine 410ml which = 100mm, Right leg to my surprise took 30ml less than the recommended 400ml to achieve 50mm depth.
So what should I go with, the level or the amount ?
I have one on my 4RT, going up a steep mud bank Wednesday night, couldn't quite make the top so had to bail laying the bike down on its side. It slid back down a bit till it dug in, nothing special no speed or rocks involved it just dug in and just the weight of the bike managed to bend the side (at the location of the bend) 90". Really didn't expect titanium to bend like that, may as well get alloy for the price. Any thoughts ?
"Could I please ask if you have taken your motorcycle to a Honda dealership for an inspection? I apologise for misinforming you in my previous email, I had not realised that the warranty period was different for a Montesa bike as opposed to a number of other Honda vehicles. I have now had it confirmed that the warranty period for your motorcycle would be for 6 months parts only.
If you would be able to take your motorcycle in to your nearest Honda dealer I would be happy to discuss the next steps forward with them."
Ok so, just wondering why Montesa recommend in the service manual to replace the brake fluid every six months but only recommend checking the clutch fluid ?
Just to keep you all in the loop I did contact Honda about two weeks ago re my experience with the seals and bearing.
I was impressed by their swift response (24hrs) expressing their regret that I had problems with the bike and that faulty parts would have been covered via a warranty but because it had not been brought to their attention (via dealer) there was nothing they could do. They did ask if there was anything else they could help with, and that they would be happy to assist with the next step forward.
I did point out that due to the cost of the seals and bearing it wasn't worth taking the bike on a 100+ mile round trip to the nearest dealer but that I would appreciate assistance regarding the brake and clutch.
I read the thread. You said the bearing was missing but then it wasn't. You said the seal keeps out water but it doesn't. You said water has contaminated the bearing and it hasn't been moving. You say this has absolutely nothing to do with lack of maintenance but if you greased the bearing like you should have then you wouldn't have had a problem.
Front brake is braktec; same as Gas Gas, Sherco, Ossa, Beta and Jotagas. Having read the full thread I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a maintenance issue.
Sorry S.E. LUCAS I don't speak or write Australian only the Queens English so I will attempt to speak or write as slow and simple as possible so that you may get some understanding. If that fails please try Google translator
I never actually said the bearing was missing, what I did say was NO BEARING FITTED (post 51) this as I have already pointed out was to emphasise ( give special importance or value to (something) in speaking or writing) that no amount of maintenance would have made a difference should no bearing have been fitted.
Yes I can see how this could have been misinterpreted (interpret (something or someone) wrongly."I think you're misinterpreting the situation")
and for this I have apologised.
Yes I said the seal keeps out water, and stand by that, UNLESS the seal has been deformed (misshaped or damaged) so that it cannot make that seal.
Yes I would say water had discoloured the needles that why I couldn't see them and yes the needles were not moving because the bearing case had been deformed (not having the normal or natural shape or form) due to incorrect fitting therefore locking the needles. (the needle rollers would not roll like they should in a bearing ! )
NO if I had greased the bearing earlier all I would have found in the damaged bearing and seal earlier !!!!!!.
All the other dog bone bearings were clean, dry and in full working order !
NO I say nothing about lack of maintenance because any amount of maintenance would not have made a difference in this case !!!
SO IF I HAD GREASED THE BEARING I WOULD STILL HAVE HAD THE PROBLEM BECAUSE IT WASNT FITTED CORRECTLY IN THE FIRST PLACE BY MONTESA.
So S.E. Lucas you can read (or have friends that can) as you quite correctly point out that other trials bike manufacturers use braketec front brakes.
Maintenance issue causing the problem of the lever slowly making its way to the bar ? I would be delighted if you could give me a little advice on this point and tell me what maintenance I should have been doing to prevent this as you clearly have a vast amount of superior knowledge to me on trails bikes.
I only built championship winning rally cars for Ford and Talbot back in the eighties, don't really know what all these letters behind my name mean I think its something to do with motor engineering.
My best guess would be contaminated brake fluid. (bits in the fluid that should be there like water) or maybe fluid seeping (passing) worn seals in the master cylinder.
Don't think the gearbox is leaving the oil in too long as I changed it after the first event then together with the engine oil I change it every fourth event oil filter every six.
I know there is another thread on here regarding types of oil but the one I used was supplied by the selling dealer and the one I use now fulfils all the manufactures specifications.
Maybe it was put in correctly and things went wrong because you ignored maintenance that Honda recommends in the manual.
You paid over £5000 for the bike and then neglected it
Please read the full thread, the swinging arm bearing fault has absolutely nothing to do with lack of maintenance.
Neither I suspect is the fact that the front brake lever slowly makes its way to the bar if held on, or that the bike starts to move forward if held on the clutch longer than a minute or so when warm.
I did read the thread. You you said the rollers were missing (post #40) and that was not true. Then you said the bearing was missing and that was not true. Sorry but that puts everything in doubt. Almost 5000 views on this thread of you giving misleading info. Careless, not intentional in my view, but still unfair to Montesa Honda.
Well I cant put down what I thought having read this post,
Think I've explained the "bearing missing" part above and apologised for any confusion,
Have you looked at the photographs ? can you see needle rollers in the race other than the last photo when I had soaked the bearing in degreaser and cleaned it up ? and bear in mind that at post 40 the bearing was still in the bike.
Unfair to Montesa Honda ? really !
My opinion (and that's what my post are) is that if the bike had no bearing fitted, that's forgetful
If the bearing is incorrectly fitted, that's bad workmanship and leads me to wonder what else has been poorly fitted that may lead to failure.
I paid over £5000 for my bike so I think I'm entitled to MY opinion, or do you disagree ?
Post #42 "it doesn't get away for the fact that there appears to be a bearing missing"
Post #51 "ie NO BEARING FITTED not my lack of servicing"
We kinda got the impression the bearing was missing.
Yep apologies if you got that impression, post 42 "appears to be a bearing missing" post 51 my attempt to point out that if the bearing wasn't there it would not be down to a lack of servicing. Could have worded it better.
I could not see the bearing when the sleeve was removed,
I thought the photo's may have clarified the point.
Just to clarify........are you telling us that the so called "missing bearing" was not missing??
If you read the thread I didn't actually say the bearing was missing, I said the needle rollers were missing and at that stage I hadn't removed them from the bike. When in situ I could not see the needles, once removed (as can be seen in the pictures) I found that the needles were blackened because the seal had been forced in damaging both the seal and the bearing to the extent the needles had seized, therefore not working.
The 4rt 2014 workshop manual seems to suggest that to change the fork oil you have to drain the old oil out by removing the fork legs and pouring it out of the top ? No drain ?
The perfectly assembled motorcycle doesn't exist... besides imperfect, lazy people on the production line leaving bearings out there is machining tolerances.
Mags
Just to clarify the bearing was in place when I stripped it down, I just couldn't see the needles with it in situ. However the bearing had been crushed sizing the needle rollers making the bearing inoperative
Well managed to get the old bearings and seals out tonight :-
Img 20 is the long collar left side
Img 22 is the opposite, right side
Img 24 & 27 is the collar removed, Quite obvious water has contaminated the left side and that the bearing has not been running on this side at any stage of the bikes life.
Img 32 & 31 bearings in situ with collar removed
Img 41 bearings and seals in order long collar side on left,
Img 43 note damage to seal inner side
Img 45 as 43 but also note how dark the needle rollers are compared to the right side
Img 48 please note the damage on the left bearing seal side compared with right side
Img 49 & 50 lost the will img speak for themselves
Now I know some of you will say Ah you have tried to pry the seal out with a driver from the left side hence the damage !
NO absolutely not
the bearing and seals were pushed out from the right side to the left using threaded bar correct side drift washer and hollow tube to push the bearings into. Therefore damaged seal out first.
Look to me very much like the left bearing has been pushed hammered or pressed in with the seal damaging both seal at bearing.
the bearing outer face has been squashed in preventing the needles from turning and due to the damaged seal water has got in to corroded the shaft. Just look how clean the right side is !!!!.
Sorry but whilst doing this tonight I was thinking that the bike isn't yet a year old yet has been off the "track " and I have missed more trials than the years I had my 2010 Sherco.
Dam you Montesa and why don't Sherco do a 4 stroke
I'm not suggesting you should dismantle and grease the link bearings after every race but every few months depending on how intensive you use your bike.
A complete water or dust tight dynamic (moving) seal does not exist so regular cleaning and regreasing prolongs the bearing life.
And what in gods name do you or your learnered(?) friend, mean by "braking" the seal?
Ha ha yes when you remove the collar from the seal you move / break the original seal seating, ie the seal will seat into the collar.
and yes I don't disagree with you regarding the re-lubricating.
Ok so the new bearing should be here tomorrow so I'll take some pic's on dismantling the old one, I know I should have had a rant at the dealer but it was just much easier to order a new original Honda one on line than ring Craigs (another days delay) and then risk the part being on back order like the steering head seal and before you know were you are another week or two gone and two more trials missed.
Anyway I'm going to play devils advocate here regarding the dog bone bushes and lubrication, bear with me on this and assume that they have been lubed from day one.
How I've been talking to an engineer friend of mine, he test objects to destruction to advise on the optimum time to replace / service.
Now if as is suggested by the Montesa manual / some advice on here, you lubricate / strip following each event , you lessen the life of all the parts concerned, you stretch the bolts, you wear the seals faster, you continually break the seal made between the seal and collar and you stand the chance of getting more contaminates (dust) into the bearing.
If you just clean the area of all the mud etc after each event you lessen the effect of the dirt wearing away at the seal or build up of contaminates around the seal.
If you place a new dog bone and linkage in water the bearing will remain clean and dry as the seal will / should prevent water getting in, the more times you dismantle and break that seal the more wear you create shortening its life !!!!
Does that make sense?
Its just a case of finding that optimum time to strip clean and re-lubricate, which will differ for each person
After all Honda say you should replace the piston every year, now hands up how many of you do that ?
Tbh, I don't want to offend you, but, if you'd serviced it, somewhere inline with what it suggests in the manual, one, you wouldn't have these problems in the first place, but, two, if the bearing was missing, you'd have got it covered by the warranty. It's generally lack of maintanance that causes the bearings to fail, they need regular cleaning and greasing, it isn't maintaince free, just because it a Honda, I mean Montesa.
All the bearings are below.
Yes ok I get that I should have lubricated the needles before now however all that are present don't seem to have suffered, clean smearing of the original grease still on and little signs of wear.
As for the warranty it clearly states on purchase there is no warranty,
If I kicked off no doubt the dealer would supply the bearing but I just haven't the time to take the bike all the way back !!
And the point of my post was the quality of the product ie NO BEARING FITTED not my lack of servicing. ( I'm not offended but clearly believe that in this day and age the suggestion in the manual that you should strip and lube the suspension linkage after each event is a bit much, why have seals on the ends if this be the case ?)
Was it the rear end of the dog bone? And the bearing that sits closest to the small collar rather than the bush?
No it was the one in the swinging arm furthest from the small collar, it just looks like a blank plastic bush with no needle rollers in it. I've order a new bush kit from H & D so I'll photograph the old ones as I remove them.
I took it they had perished long ago, I grease everything on a new bike and if that had been done if the bearing was missing it would have been picked up before the first ride not 10 months later. I've serviced other peoples bikes and seen virtually no signs of a bearing in the dog bones or linkages as they've never been greased or serviced before, just fell out or disintegrated. I'll apologise now if I'm totally mistaken though, and its possible this is a pdi problem not Honda's?
Point taken but strange how all the other bearings were clean dry and in full working order !
Service manual?
in Vertigo
Posted
Hi Primodious
Sorry to be a pain but having just changed from Two new 4rt's over the last eight years with there comprehensive manuals, I've just gone to a two stroke Vertigo with not manual. I believe you may be the person who could assist.
Very much appreciated if you could,
many thanks
Hannu
cambeth1311@gmail.com