First off let me address the Boss, Andy, not living in England I've not seen all the hard work Sandifords has done of late for the local sport. I do know they are a fine organization because they have helped me while I was on Montesa, which I'm sincerely thank full for. Andy, let me give you a little advice, why are you so over sensitive when taking about the sport, you take everything as a personel insult. We are just benchracing like they do in every other motorsport.
If you would losen up a little this site would grow, if the whole sport losened up, it would also grow!
Next let me addres Paul, because I know and repect you. Honda has not only a 50% share of the US market but a 50% share of ALL the world's market. Half the bikes produced and sold on the planet are Hondas, then add the cars, boat motors, generators and lawn mowers and you have an 800 pound Gorrilla running around the world. I think Honda spends more promotional money on the LA Marathon than they do supporting trials, a sport that has brought more develepment information to the company that just about any other part of their racing programs.
I do know that their support of the US nationals of late has been horrible! They have been a total failure at bringing any kind of a compeditive effort to bear against the little factories here in the USA. I know that they can do one because of their amazing efforts in the 1970s with Marland Whaley, Joe Gugliamelli, George Smith the 3rd and Mark Eggar, they were the toughest team in the business.
Now the Demo topic Paul, we have had long treads here on the subject. I think it's been decided here through an open dialog that almost no new riders have been brought into the sport by all the Trials Demos done by the top riders. Yes they can earn a good living putting these side shows on but do they sell bikes or promote the sport, I think it's been decided that the answer is no.
Lastly is Tony the man? You bet! Would he be winning on the Beta? I don't really know, but I don't think so!
Now for the smart @ss remark about me looking for shut up money from Honda! That's such BS, I won't even address that silly comment.
This is an interesting topic and one that cannot be answered without more testing and information. I'd have to say that I'm an expert on Bultaco front forks on the Sherpa but you have an interesting problem. Are Bultaco springs really what you need for a hi-bred project like you have?
Here's how springs work, the wire size and how they the winding is spaced decides how stiff or soft they are, really all you can do in this situation is buy the progressive springs and try them! They will either work so, so, horrilbe or be almost spot on, you simply need to be good enough of a tuner to know. Sorry but that's the facts.
Here's how you modify a spring, if you want it stiffer simply shorten it and replace the lost length with an alloy spacer. Which makes the overall prelaod the same because the lost length of the spring is replaced with the spacer. So go ahead and try those trick Bultaco progressive spings, start with preload spacers to ajust them. If they are still to soft, shorten them and build the spacer.
Now if you want the spring softer, I put them on a grinder and grind away part of the outside of the spring to make the wire smaller. How much? That depends on your desired tuning set-up. I'd have to be there to help you, sorry!
Sure the little factories are being beat up by the giant, that is for a number of reasons. Number one is that Honda is not restricted by R and D costs like little Sherco, GASGAS, Beta or Scorpa is. Then don't need to sell bikes to create a positive cash flow to maintain their race team. Car, lawn mowers, generators and street bike sales cover the cost of racing for the most part at Honda.
I'm simply pointing out that like back in the 70s and 80s people will grow tired of it. You have to admit that the little factories race what they sell............... then support the local sport a lot more than giant Honda.
I would have won it a ton more times if I had not been clerk of the course and not ridden. Vesty the great former World Champion is also a past British American winner by the way.
Why your dad and I founded this trial was to show the Yanks how trials were done in England! With mail entries, no splits in the sections and riders starting one per minute, deturmined by reciept of entry.
I remember one year your dad disqualifed Wiltz Wagner the head of the NATC for cheating! Man that didn't go over well and boy did I get a lot of heat for that back at the council for that!
LOL
The DVD on any 3rd Sunday goes in the mail today! That was another fine event that I used to organize each year up in NorCal......the DVD was of the Team Trial I believe, the Geritol trial was organized the very next day and was another event I established and is still running today, like the British American cup.
That's what makes me so mad about our current champions here in the USA. They never seem to give much back to the sport, they simply take, take take.
Remember the Schrieber cup, the trial that Bernie established and is still going?
I agree with you guys that TEAM Honda/Montesa has done an amazing job producing this bike/rider/team combination, thumbs up to them there!
What's the real story here, not just the same old tired logic, "is it the bike or the rider" Geeeeeez I remember Martin Lampkin writing that about Rob Shepard and his factory Honda 4t back in the 70s. So that's some really tired reporting for sure.
Here's the real story the way I see it. Montesa is leading Honda into a public relations disaster! How? Very simple, Honda is the 800 pound gorilla of motorsports and everyone hates a smart @ss giant. The fans will begin to pull for the little guy really soon, kind of like a David vs Golioth story very soon. They will get sick of Honda/Montesa being a bully.
What Montesa has done is very simple, first they head hunted Dougie from little Beta. Which really did not bother anybody, then they stole Sanz and now Bou, plus they have taken riders from some other companies. Montesa has a horrible history of head hunting the talent other people have developed by simply offering mega $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$......... Which will only fly for so long until there is a HUGE backlash.
Their next HUGE problem is their bike! Their production bike cannot produce anywhere near the results of their works bike. Another problem, they don't support the sport on a national level like Sherco, Scorpa, Beta or GASGAS does. They simple spend all their money on their factory team and bikes! A good example is the fact they have had nobody contesting the US Championship for years! While the other tiny little brands support riders in almost every country on the planet.
Next issue is the history of bad sportsmenship displayed by some of their riders, from their first world champion to their current women's world champ. Who roosted an observer at the USA round after being unhappy with a call. I've also experenced some very heavy handedness from some of their importers.
All this adds up to a reciepe for a train wreck down the tracks.
Look, I realize that this space is sponsored by Montesa and that this post might be deleted and I might get banned from TC for expressing my point of view here but I must take that risk. But really, I'm simply being honest and pointing out what I feel the real story is here. I'm also giving fair warning to Team Honda/Montesa that they are cruising for a BIG public relations disaster down the tracks if they don't change course and very soon.
I like TEAM Honda! I own a whole stable of Honda motorcycles and generators. Plus my wife was a factory Honda rider for a short time! They also offered me a spot on their team, plus I did a riding school for their factory MX team once. So believe me I'm not anti Honda! I'm simply the messenger, so please don't shoot me!
Guys, I predicted he would win the world title several months ago, before the season even started! NO MYSTRY, YOU SIMPLY NEED TO GO TO THOSE IN THE KNOW AND WHO HAVE THE BALLS TO PUT IT OUT THERE! Unlike the girly men who hide in the dark and are afraid of their own shadow.
Of course it's a combination of man, machine and support, Trials is a team sport today. Sadly, trials has now become a works bike sport again, one where a production based bike is no longer capable of competing against the mighty factory one off bikes. Much like we saw in the days of LeJune and Whaley.
I like the idea of another Pro National championship series besides the NATC series, which is of course an amatuer series today! In the day the NATC was packed full of professional riders and factory teams. Including Honda and Yamaha to name a few big brands.
Perhaps picking exsisting established famous events would be the way to go? El Trial could be one round, the Fall fest Pro event in Okalahoma and the indoor national championship during the Youth Nationals in Tenn. could be another. Clubs could volenteer their BIG events as a round each year if they wanted to be involved, trials like fun in the sun for example. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see the best riders in their local area!
Remember this could be done OUTSIDE the NATC, also remember that the AMA and the NATC is the same thing! Don't let that get in the way however, when Larry Wise of Montesa, TMI and Fantic and myself organized the 125/250 US national championship in 1981, we had the sanction and the blessing of the AMA, outside the NATC. So it's not a big deal to organize a national Title without the NATC, I've already done it!
Great points about the Oklahoma fall fest and Travis Fox! I also like the untimate fighting comparison done by Paul. Often I hang with these ultimate fighters, one of my best buddies is Gene LeBell known as the toughest man alive, Gene runs the gym and trains a lot of the very best ultimate fighters on the planet. He used to ride trials years ago and he recommended me for my first stunt job, wheelieing a motorcycle down the railing of a bridge on "The Fall Guy" TV series.
That day really opened my eyes, I made more money in two days than I earned working all year as a professional trials rider. Yes, the stunt scared the h@ll out of me but earning thousands of dollars in one day was great. Plus those two days lauched my new movie and TV career.
I think you guys must remember that I was pulled aside by Wiltz Wagner and the core of the NATC at my last NATC meeting and told point blank.......We do not want anymore Pro riders in the United State! What they had a vision for was a bunch of guys getting together having fun, contesting their age group championship at well organized fun events. I think they have acheived that goal very well.................
Wiltz and the core of the organization felt that Professional riders and teams are bad sportsmen! They felt that it was no fun having Professional athletes riding with them. So their goal for the US nationals was to organize fun events that they could ride and have a great time at.
I feel that Wiltz and the organization made a huge mistake! What they needed to do was have two series. One for the Pros and one for the sportsmen! That way trials could grow and still enjoy fun age group national championship. That way we would have the best of both worlds.
Zippy, sorry I'm so blunt!, Picture my world for a moment! In the stunt world, if you screw up someone is either dead or hurt really bad! When it goes well, is planned to a "T" and everyone works together, then we all have fun, make a lot of money and provide some great entertainment for everyone interested in dramatic TV and feature films.
If things go bad, in comes all the lawyers, OSHA, studio safety people and everyone else. So you tend to get REALLY cut and dry and dead serious about things. You must cut through the Krap and do just what is needed to keep people safe and earning a living. Everything else is unemportant!
Yes, a lot of that pressure and professional lifestyle bleeds over into my sporting life. Sorry if it offends some people but I simply don't have the luxury, time or the personality to play around after all these years of dealing with life and death situations almost everyday.
Here's what p****s me off zippy, most people when they REALLY talk the sport through with me, we agree on most things. A lot of words have been put into my mouth by others! My viewpoint is often misrepresented by 3rd parties!
A sport becoming professional is the responsibility of the national and international promoters. About the very best example of a sport being promoted well in recent years is NASCAR. Like the sport or not, they have done an amazing job of creating something speical.
If the drivers/riders/players of any sport are not being compensated well enough to earn their living or fortune. The responsibility for that lack of success of that sport belongs squarely on the shoulders of the promoters. Think about it, if Poker can be promoted as a huge TV event, than anything can!
Shercrazy, man did you nail it! Being a Pro is NOT FUN, it's hard work! For 5 years trials was my ONLY source of income and having to bring in the results is not fun, it's work.
Of all the sports a young athlete can do, trials has about the least PAYBACK for the amount of work and training required to be at the top. Consider just about any other sport, from swimming, gymnastics, golf, tennis, football, baseball, basketball and other where you get a free college education and often a BIG PAYDAY if you turn pro.
I don't think most people realize how hard Bou or even young Patrick Smage the upstart Yank, works to earn their skills. Then the pressure to perform is incredible!
What's the life span of a top trials athlete? Maybe 5 years if they are lucky! Then what?
I like the "name" Champ Class! In the beginning of the US Championship, we only had two classes. Champ and Support, we now call them Pro and Expert at our nationals.
It was several years into the series that we added a senior class, which included riders 35 years of age and older. Our first US senior champion was Bob Nickelson, the Team manager for Honda's factory trials team. Our 2nd US senior champion I believe was Wiltz Wagner, one of the founders of the NATC and long time chairman.
Looking back at the 1976 US Championship results, we had over 100 riders contesting the Champ Class. In fact a lot of those rated Champ class riders still top the US Sportsmen nationals today. Riders like Curt Comer, I imagine that Scott Head would also easily win the sportsmen nationals if he decided to ride. !
Here's my understanding of how we got into the manditory spark arrester situation. If your old enough you might remember the old Gill Spark Arrester out of San Francisco marketed in the late 1960's. Califorina was the first state to require these devices and they were adopted as manditory after Mr. Gill married the daughter of Gov. Brown Senior, also the brother of future govonor Jerry Brown.
This family also owned the first PVC crankcase ventilation anto smog system that became a manditory retrofit onto every automoble in the state in about 1965. So the Brown family did know how to work the system in the state to earn an honest buck.
It was not long after the manditory spark arrester in Califorina that other western states adopted them. Now if you remember all the Japanese trials bikes like Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki had USFS United States Forest Service approved spark arresters standard. Bultaco also designed and produced the box banana silencer that had a factory spark arrester that was intorduced in 1976. This Bultaco system was excellent and was used on all the World Championship winning machines throughout the end of production even though they were not required in Europe.
I have seen a BIG spark come from our Sherco exsast without an arrester! Are they a pain in the @ss? No doubt but living in a fire zone I don't mind putting on the little screen models, even though they must be cleaned every ride or perhaps every lap in a competition.
I have seen these screen units modified for increased performance! On Geoff Aaron's GasGas I have noticed that he replaces the standard screen with a much larger holed screen for increased performance and for sure less cleaning between rides or laps.
Thanks John, I missed you guys too. I've been a little busy working in New Mexico on a Terminator TV show and developing some new and exciting stunt technology. So I have not been able to think as much about trials. Maybe I can get back into the swing of things soon?
Your so right that the Yanks have been a lot of talk and no action for a LONG TIME in the sport, "Except negitive action!" But let's not go there NOW! I'd like to concentrate on the bright side of things.
We, meaning the USA may be in a position to see some things change soon. Remember I was the guy who went out on the limb and predicted Bou being in the drivers seat, at this years world championship. So I do have a good vision for the future. I'm also going to go out on a limb again and predict that Smage will OPEN some eyes soon bringing ACTION instead of just talk into the Trials world.
Remember this kid, dispatched the 10 time US Champion Geoff Aaron and sent him running in his very first season. This is unheard of that anybody could come up that quick. This kid is the real deal! Of course I realize that the odds are against him because the US federation does not support him in a quest for world championship points but he's tough and has a good team around him.
So don't worry, you have not seen the last of me! I dig this sport and "I'll Be Back!" Only this time maybe riding in two states, New Mexico and Califorina as well as Europe.
What was the personel attack that I made on Wiltz and the NATC your referring too Steve? Be precise and don't take it out of context please! All I've ever done is point out their goals and agenda's, which they have acheived very successfully.
Andy, it's not a crime to have your head up your @ss! Neither is having an differnt point of view! Or for a matter of fact, seeing the big picture and special interests in a sport. This is simply a GROWTH vs NO GROWTH point of view conflict.
Face it, without widespred appeal and acceptance of all types of people and riders, this sport will go NO-WHERE! For over 30 trials has gone nowhere or backwards. I doubt that now or in the future anything will change much.
Paul, the 125cc class is a step in the right direction for sure! As for the other posts you are talking about, I was not on-line so I did not see them, so I can't comment.
Hey, what's this, no lanes world? KINDA TYPICAL of the behind the scenes politics that have held this great sport back!
Sorry everyone, I've been working and was unable to respond to any direct questions. I'm thinking of expanding my business and I'm off working on the details. Plus I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THAT I WAS ON TRIAL here.
To accuse me of being out of bounds toward the NATC or Dr Wagner is a typical knee jerk hyper-sensitive over reaction we often see here! They "the NATC" should be proud of the decisions and direction they have taken the sport, not hyper sensitive or uneasy about their leadership. In my opinion, Only someone who feels that they have made a HUGE mistake should be so sensitive about their leadership or business model.
Believe me, I hold no hard feelings or disrespect for either the NATC or Wiltz. Quite the opposite is true. I respect the fact that THEY run the sport and took it the way they did. Hey think about it, they are the ones who did the work, made the business model they now use and they should be confident and proud of it. Not embarassed UNLESS THEY FEEL THEY HAVE MADE A MISTAKE!
In fact I'm a little amazed that somebody would go to all the effort of censoring Lane's World, which has simply been an honest dialog. Rather than these people censoring it, why didn't they join in. It's almost like they have something to hide! What is it? That the NATC or those around them are so sensitive about?
Could it be the fact that they didn't want anymore professional riders or BIG factories like Honda in their series anymore? so what! What they told me they wanted was a series that was sportsmen friendly and that's exactly what they created. They should be proud of that success, not sensitive about it or try to hide it.
Sure there have been certain factors that their leadership brought into play with their current business model. One being, the US Team is pushed around badly at the TDN, when at one time team USA could have domintated that event. So what? That was by their design, they should again be proud of that and look at the up side.
Their goals of that business model was an excellent sportsmen national format at the US National series. Everyone really enjoys what they have created, I'm sure they have to be proud of that? Of course as an organization, the NATC adopted a NO GROWTH policy for our sport here in the USA. So What!
That was their choice and the chosen business model by the NATC! Of course it has had an effect on the worldwide growth of the sport and the numbers of bikes built and sold worldwide. Growth or No Growth is always a HOT topic in any community or sport worldwide. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, the NATC should be commended, in life you need to lead, follow or get out of the way. They decided a NO GROWTH policy was what they wanted, they need to be proud of that position in my opinion.
Perhpas it was my views and commets of why trials is not a good sport for a young American athletes to choose today that raised their eyebrows and had me censored? But Hey, face facts and be honest!
My overall opinion was only made stronger by the removal of Lane's World. I find who ever was working behind the scenes to remove Lane's World to be heavy handed and part of the forces that are holding this greeat sport back. For any real success for a young American trials athlete today, our sport must be able to pay them back for all the hard work they put into their training, time, effort and money put into trials.
By comparison, a youngster working just as hard at gymnastics, football, baseball, tennis, golf or a host of other great sports, will find much more of a pay-off for their efforts. Including a free college education and perhaps a multi- million dollar career to reward them for their hard work. Be honest, if a young athlete cannot expect some pay-back why bother with a sport that has NO FUTURE payoff.
Now if the NATC is only interested in promoting is a fun sportsmen championship, with no pay-off to young athletes, more power to them!
All I'm asking is that they are honest and up front with the Young American riders. Let the younger generation go play basketball or run track to help pay for their education. Then after they have a degree and a career, they can come and ride the NATC sportsmen series with their dads. Simply, the chance of turning pro or getting a free education through trials is very slim. You have a much better chance with another sport.
To accuse me of NATC or Wiltz Wagner bashing is simply putting words in my mouth! That has never been my intention. I've simply pointed out that they are turning away cash customers and by design doing their best to keep US riding levels low. Simply because they want a sportsmen friendly US championship, that they and their friends can ride and have fun at.
They should not feel ashamed or mad of that fact but proud! They are simply on the NO Growth side of the equation. While others have always been Pro growth for this wonderful sport. Personally, I'd rather see people on trials bikes in a riding area than a bunch of guys tearing it up on MX machines. Others however simply want trials a secret, which is OK, that's their opinion.
Also remember this simple fact. That IF trials did become popular in the USA, that it might put a lot of the mom and pop shops and importers OUT OF BUSINESS in the USA. For instance HRC/ Honda just might start importing their bikes through their US Honda dealer networks. Putting the under the radar importers out of business which they now enjoy.
This is just one example why some might be NO GROWTH for US trials! Which is understandable! There is a thousand other arguments and reasons out there why some are NO GROWTH but with each argument or reason, there is the opposite side of the coin.
Dixie, I agree that the 4T is slower than the Beta he rode last year. In my view he had to much speed last year and overshot the mark often. Now on the slower bike, he's going better.
Watching Raga, he also has to much power! Indoors, maybe all the power is good but outdoors he's not hooking up as well as he could.
Wow, time flys! Good to see that he can come back and still "go well"
I find the X-Games an amazing bit of promotion and business! Any sport that makes the event has production value and entertainment. So to be on that cutting edge for Phillip is really an honor and shows that greatness runs in the family.
Here's the differnce, last year bou won, this year he looks like a champion. He looks differnt! Why, not sure yet? But at least I gave a possible explanation.
Watching Bou ride last year on TV he was overshooting his mark quite often, which caused him to lose unneeded marks. On the 4T which is slower, he might be a lot more "on the mark" Simply a theory!
I'm looking foreward to videos of him on the HRC four stroke to try to figure out if that's what has made the differnce.
Week 5 - Is It Bou Or His Bike?
in Centrally Speaking
Posted · Edited by Mich Lin
A lot of good comments, here my take!
First off let me address the Boss, Andy, not living in England I've not seen all the hard work Sandifords has done of late for the local sport. I do know they are a fine organization because they have helped me while I was on Montesa, which I'm sincerely thank full for. Andy, let me give you a little advice, why are you so over sensitive when taking about the sport, you take everything as a personel insult. We are just benchracing like they do in every other motorsport.
If you would losen up a little this site would grow, if the whole sport losened up, it would also grow!
Next let me addres Paul, because I know and repect you. Honda has not only a 50% share of the US market but a 50% share of ALL the world's market. Half the bikes produced and sold on the planet are Hondas, then add the cars, boat motors, generators and lawn mowers and you have an 800 pound Gorrilla running around the world. I think Honda spends more promotional money on the LA Marathon than they do supporting trials, a sport that has brought more develepment information to the company that just about any other part of their racing programs.
I do know that their support of the US nationals of late has been horrible! They have been a total failure at bringing any kind of a compeditive effort to bear against the little factories here in the USA. I know that they can do one because of their amazing efforts in the 1970s with Marland Whaley, Joe Gugliamelli, George Smith the 3rd and Mark Eggar, they were the toughest team in the business.
Now the Demo topic Paul, we have had long treads here on the subject. I think it's been decided here through an open dialog that almost no new riders have been brought into the sport by all the Trials Demos done by the top riders. Yes they can earn a good living putting these side shows on but do they sell bikes or promote the sport, I think it's been decided that the answer is no.
Lastly is Tony the man? You bet! Would he be winning on the Beta? I don't really know, but I don't think so!
Now for the smart @ss remark about me looking for shut up money from Honda! That's such BS, I won't even address that silly comment.