I found I could use the regular rear mounting holes for the cable ties if I trimmed a little of the sealing foam from below the RH hole, put a kink in the tip of the tie and it feeds through easily.
It's a bit hard to see in Ed's photo if you've trimmed the whole hook section (pic below), or just the ends? It looked to me like the hook would hold on too tight, so I trimmed the hook section pretty much right off and put on a Gorilla tape flap to stop muck flicking past. I also made a rough copy of the Trick Bits clear airfilter cover out of an old folder cover to keep a bit more dirt out of the filter if/when it does get past.
I did away with the airbox lid screw and just use clear tape to hold it on. I heated the bottom of the screw hole so I could form a dome in the plastic to fit over the bolt head below - if I ever want to use the original bolts again I can.
Although this has saved the guard at least once already (fell sideways onto a log, broke both cable ties, sent the airbox lid flying, and twisted the guard way out of shape), I still think the front bolts are a bit too secure - I've ordered M6 x 12 pan head nylon screws through Ebay, hopefully if things go really pear shaped the entire guard will come off before it breaks.
My next step is to work out how to make magnetic catches for it. I made some of these for my Sherco and they worked really well. When the guard gets pulled off it automatically reattaches itself as soon as the pressure is released, nothing breaks, nothing to carry or replace.
It's nice not having a floppy guard, but I'd rather more flexibility and less fragility!
Great ideas Bikerpet. I only trimmed the ends of the plastic hook. I thought about trimming more, but it seemed to slide off pretty easily as is, but I can always adopt your approach if needed later. I should have went your route with heating the airbag cover, but I could not see ever going back to stock. Crash proofed and crash tested bikes bring more on the used bike market here.
I like the magnet idea. A similar approach would be adhesive backed velcro (hook & loop to some folks). Great source for such things, at least here in the US is mcmaster.com. Hopefully there are similar Strine suppliers. ?
Still experimenting but the 13mm bearing seems to work well with the stock cam. (As long as the idiot installing it uses loctite on the screws) I have the 14mm bearing in now with the custom cam and it’s really good. I will try the 16mm bearing with the reverse indexer next time I get around to cracking it open.
Unfortunately unlike the clutch fix this one requires some parts swapping.
IIRC, the original bearing diameter was 13 mm. Is that correct?
Yeah, you were closer with the Beta clutch fix.(You got 166 thousand views!) Which still is not the problem. It is clutch drag that can be fixed with the proper shims. Cheap, under ten dollars and less than 20 minutes work. You have less than a dozen guys interested in the NEW FIX.
Me takes the view count as evidence there are a lot more dragging clutches out there than bikes jumping out of gear in the Beta world. ?
But hey, solving a problem is only a small part of the purpose of tinkering. It is recreational and entertaining. The process is it's own reward. Results are secondary.
Hell, anyone can adjust their clutch free play properly, bleed their clutch properly, and install shims. This is creativity, art, innovation, engineering, and ingenuity at it's finest.
Good on ya Dan for going down this road. Solving problems by following the advice of others, hell, anyone can do that!
That's not an obsession, that's a healthy, family bonding activity........ So, IIRC, the end result (so far...) is a 14 mm diameter bearing instead of a 13 mm diameter bearing that is moved towards the center of the engine to allow more bearing/contact area with the cam. Is this correct?
Excellent information Dan. Thanks for keeping us up to date. I look forward to future updates.
With such a small neutral "detent," it is not surprising that neutral is hard to find. But obviously, making the detent bigger, makes it more prone to jumping out of gear. A smaller diameter bearing might help, but there might not be a great deal of improvement left to gain. Since we all talking about feel, it is hard to quantify.
It's not the money that hurts from bad decisions. It's the time and effort to correct the damage from the bad decisions. I guess you could say that's the real valuable experience. A bad decision itself is merely an opportunity. Otherwise you just keep making the same bad decisions over and over. I've noticed those that don't have to clean up their own mistakes don't really learn anything.
But it's a new world and everybody gets a trophy and somebody else will fix it.
If you're looking for me I'll be in my safe space.
Dan,
I, for one, appreciate your time and effort addressing this issue. IMO, tinkering with bikes and making incremental improvements are half the fun of motorcycling in general. You've shown some great thinking during this ordeal. Pat yourself on the back for having the guts to experiment.
Regarding mistakes, amen that those who do not feel the pain of fixing mistakes usually seem to miss the most valuable part of the experience, the lesson. In my younger days, I used to think the those who did not do it perfectly the first time were stupid. Easy to think that from the sidelines. Now older, I know that 90% of engineering success is incremental and iterative. Never bet against the person willing to take chances and make mistakes. In the long run, that's the person you want on your team.
If I knew the address of your safe space, I'd send you a puppy and some cotton candy. ? Hopefully, when you are done licking your wounds, you'll get back on that pony and show em who the boss is!!!!!
Today I learned the importance of loctite. Since we have a month long layoff for events in July I was going to tear into my shifter mods and check for wear and whatnot after tomorrow’s trial. Well trail riding with my wife and a friend today the EVO started making an ugly sound. Just disassembled the primary drive to find the cam screw backed out and was hitting the rivets on the back of the clutch basket. The good thing is it’s an easy fix. Also the custom indexer still looks great. Bearing is tight. Phew! Lucked out this time.
This is why I don’t offer anybody these parts until I’ve run them in for a while. Never know what you’re gonna learn until it happens. (But yeah I’m an idiot for not using loctite)
Kudos for sharing Dan. That's what us old guys are supposed to do, share our stories of stupidity with the world, so the you guns feel better about their own mistakes. "Do as I say, not as I do!" and "Don't be an idiot!" remain pearls of timeless wisdom!
I have now spoken to John Lampkin who has informed me after having a good look at it that it is normal? He says as the bike goes between low jet and high jet there is a moment that there is hardly any fuel going into the bore so when it reaches the point of getting the fuel the piston will slap a bit. I still find it very disconcerting that the piston slaps that hard but he says it's a common thing on the new Betas and not to worry about it.
I have asked a few folk who have 18s and 19s they all say they don't have it happen on their bikes. It kinda makes you want to go get a new one but mine is still new and I should not have to get rid of it.
I really don't know what to do for the best because to my ears it's a nasty noise
Mightychub,
I don't know how sensitive your ears are, so maybe the noise is normal. But if your mates think it is not normal, that is a strong indicator that something is wrong.
I would insist on some written documentation from Lampkin stating that there is nothing wrong with your bike, and that if a problem exists in the future, he will fix it on his dime. If he is confident in his diagnosis, this should not be a problem. Can you record the noise, if so, maybe forwarding the noise file to Beta would get additional opinions. Obviously, in these situations, we are looking for a fix, and additionally, peace of mind that the problem does not exist.
At a minimum I would:
1. Buy the highest octane "petrol" you can find, and add a double or triple dose of octane booster to it and see if the noise goes away. Aviation gas (112 octane in the US) is what a friend who has ridden Beta for decades swears is required, unless you have the Beta 250 which is their lowest compression motor. You could also make up a small batch of gas-oil mixture that is richer in oil and try that.
2. If Lampkin is right, that the noise is caused by carb jetting, one would think that making the carb jetting richer might help reduce the noise. Hopefully with the bike still running well. A quick experiment might be to "choke off" the air intake area (with some duct tape) to simulate a clogged air filter to see if that changes the noise. Additionally, remove the air filter completely to lean out the mixture. Might not help, but easy and quick.
3. Pull the head or use a boroscope to look for signs of detonation.
4. As Dan has suggested, the Jitsie water pump impeller may help. Does the problem only occur when hot?
I'm no Beta master, but experimenting should tell you something.
Mucho thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic, in this thread and others. Since I have a fair amount of experience crashing Shercos, I went the following route. Pictures speak better than words in this case.
I’m worried the spring might get cocked sideways and act weird. I know that’s poorly said. I also only have the machining capability afforded by a vice and a dremel. It’s easier (but not cheaper) to farm it out to eMachineshop. Oh well that’s what the day job is for. To pay for what I want to play with.
Day three out with the custom indexer and still flawless. Starting to get my confidence back. Modifying the pin to flip the bearing will probably be my last modification on this issue. Already over $900 in the hole. But I’se gotsta know.?
But I’m back to lovin’ my bike again and how much is that worth?
I understand completely...... but..... that's why god made hand files. To "square up" or "fix" all the sh*t that isn't done by a real machine shop. A dial caliper, a magic marker and a file can fix a lot of f**k ups. But, as long as you're in love again, that's what really matters.
Think of all your time, expenses, and tinkering as the foreplay in a long term, meaningful relationship.?
Also speaking from a position of ignorance, I agree that guy53 has a good point. But it is all about the available space envelope. Some times physics says "Screw you! You gotta do it my way!" Stupid physics.
Go for it Dan. Where would the world be without "famous last words?" ?
Ditto on the thanks for your time, effort, and sharing.
SIT REP as Jeremy Clarkson would say. Second day out on the bike with custom indexer installed and stock cam. No false neutrals and shifting on the loop very positive. A couple of times a shift wasn’t right on and a split second later the box snicked into gear on its own. Strongly points to my original issue being the wonky bearing on the indexer.
Sounds like confirmation of your analysis to me. Good bearing obviously better than bad bearing. Smaller OD bearing should also be an improvement.
Yep, mine read about 1.1 to 1.5 for a club trial. I took it off after the first couple as I thought it wasn't working. Then I put it back on where I could see it and it really is that little bike time for a novice. I don't sit there with the bike idling in the queue though.
Seems reasonable. If an event has 30 sections, I would estimate 30-60 seconds to ride a section. At 10 miles per hour, you spend about 18 minutes riding a mile loop 3 times.
Well yes and no. How's that for commiting to an answer? Typically in a cam follower needle bearings are used with a thicker outer race because the force is concentrated at one point on the outside of the race. A typical ball bearing isn't meant to have the outer race under constant asymmetric pressure so there is a concern long term of unusual wear when a ball bearing is used as a cam follower. But I agree that in this situation the concern is probably minimal. I don't like that there may be torque on the bearing that could twist it.
True. I was thinking about the only load on the cam follower is provided by the spring force. 10-40 lbs?
Out of interest, how much run time do you think a normal club trial entails? I've fitted an hour meter so that I can keep track when practicing as that's when the hours can clock up. I was a bit surprised as to the time spent riding at a normal trial.
The people I know who have hour meters have told me they clock less than 2 hours of running time in an event. Which for our club is generally 3 loops of nine or ten sections or 4 loops of eight sections.
Right you are about practice and play riding having more running time. One has said "I come up to your land to play ride and I get 3 hours of run time in a 6 hour visit."
Well still working the problem but here’s the latest discovery. I ordered a cam indexer to make measurements on since it was winter and I didn’t have a warm place to pull the motor apart. Last week I did pull the shifter assembly apart to put in the indexer I had made.
So here are the indexers. The first is what was in the bike. 14mm diameter, 3mm wide and loose as can be. The replacement from Beta, 16mm diameter, 5mm wide. The indexer I put together, 13mm diameter, 5mm wide.
What I learned seeing the actual assembly in situ is the indexer is offset from the cam and only hits the very end of it. A situation made worse by the offset of my design. I have to rethink that a bit. Beta seems to be using collections of whatever parts are in the bin. The stock bearing on my bike was crap.
I put in my replacement indexer anyway and went riding. It popped out a few times when I did halfhearted stabs at the shifter but never popped out when I did a proper shift. Shifting also felt more positive snicking neatly into place when done correctly. So it is improved but not perfect.
So where to go from here? I have custom cams machined that’ll be arriving in a few weeks. Deeper re-profiled notches and extra holes to move neutral between any two gears. Unfortunately they are not offset to match the indexer so I may have to rethink their design.
Dan, Thanks for the update. Very interesting. It seems obvious, that the smaller diameter bearing on the indexer should provide more positive engagement. In regards to the 16mm diameter bearing, WTF are they thinking? As you said, they are probably using whatever gets sent to the assembly iine. So far on my 2019 EVO 250, it has only come out of gear once, during the first couple hours of running. I don't recall if it was first or second, or whether I was lazy engaging the gear. I'm not too concerned since it is a new bike, so for the time being, it is a non problem in my mind. My first oil change (after two hours) was to Amsoil 10w-40 Synthetic Motorcycle oil, but I've switched to a non-synthetic 10w-30 to allow a little quicker break in. I'm a firm believer in non-synthetic oil changed every couple hours during break in. Gotta let the self-machining process run it's course. When you see the chips attached to the drain plug magnet after only two hours of running....
What oil are you using? What is length of the axial overlap between indexer bearing face and cam face? Please keep us informed.
Side note: A friend's 2018 EVO 250 has a cracked rear hub around one of the wheel bearings. He did not say which side. Sounds to me like the bearing bore was machined a bit too small, and they cracked the hub by forcing the bearing into the bore during installation. He has informed his dealer, and Beta is fixing it under warranty. I was impressed that Beta would do so. I don't think many other OEM's would do that on a competition machine that has been in use for a year. Take care.
Thanks for the information and effort. The theory makes perfect sense. Hydraulic clutches have so little movement at the plates, that taking out the slack at the plates is a good idea. I've haven't noticed a problem on my 2019 EVO 250, but it is my first Beta after riding a 2001, 2005, and 2011 Sherco since 2003. Some have suggested I'm inherently insensitive before.......?
When looking for stuff like this, I suggest always trying McMaster.com. Excellent selection and the best vendor search engine I have ever found. We have ordered as late as 8pm and had the parts by 10am the next day.
McMaster-Carr pn 98055A218 is a 16 x 22 x 0.1mm shim washer. $5.52 for a quantity of 25. Also available in 0.2mm, 0.3mm, and 0.5mm. Or in 18 x 25 x 0.1mm size.
Dan is right. Nothing to worry about. Not unusual for all motorcycle transmissions. They often need a little movement in the drive train for the gears to unlock and allow the shift forks to slide.
It is very possible to bend shift forks if "Fred the gorilla" tries to change gears by stomping on the shifter with out slightly rotating the rear wheel or rocking the bike back and forth.
‘18 popping out of gear
in Beta
Posted
Congrats on retirement Dan. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Takes a while to get used to the idea of your time is your own.