I was at the CO rounds and think the marker rule is universally disliked (from what I can tell) - it changed the results of the pro class on Saturday and caused some difficulty for checkers (whose lives are hard enough.... THANKS FOR CHECKING!!!!)
I am posting this here in the hopes that it prevents someone else from the same frustration I went through... .and also to help dispel the myth that the Formula brakes are crap because they`re not, necessarily. But they are certainly getting a bad rap.
Let me start by saying I`ve been optimistic about these brakes from the beginning - I always though the AJP stuff was in need of an update and in particular hated the plastic lever bushes and the reach adjustment. So along comes the formula stuff with a proper monoblock caliper (current state of the art for racing, prevents caliper flex by eliminating the need to `split` the caliper into halves) and an ingenious reach adjustment that does with one thumbwheel (no tools!!) that used to need two threaded adjusters, a 10mm whrench, and an allen key. Also gone are the plastic lever bushings, replaced by a stainless steel pivot pin. Engineering wise there is a lot to like about these components, not to mention they are a bit lighter than even the latest and greatest AJP kit on my 2011.
So the brakes are trick, but they didn`t work right!! First impressions were good but it soon became clear that something is rotten in the province of Bologna.....sort of a `notchy` feel to the brakes. I started by taking apart the Master cylinder and found it to be `graunchy`` so took it apart, cleaned it up, and it improved it immensly, and also I found the pivot pin was dry as a bone from the factory and lubed it a bit. This certainly improved things a bit and my first couple of hours on the bike were happy ones, but by the second time I rode the bike I found the brake to be getting worse - poor feel, short on power, too much lever travel, etc. this was a few days ago and today I finally had some time today to fiddle and made up my mind to fix it once and for all.
I literally spent all afternoon completely disassembling the front brake caliper, cleaning it all up (an ALARMING amount of aluminum filings), polishing the bores, reassembling, took apart the m/c and cleaned it for the second time, and basically got everything as close to perfect as I could…. Put it back on the bike, and same crappy brakes. Mushy, weak, but sort of grabby at the same time under low braking force, awful!!
What is particularly troublesome about this is there’s no reason that I can see that these brakes shouldn’t be wonderful, it’s not rocket science, just basic physics, and there is nothing “wrong” here, although I would say there was an unacceptable amount of crap/crud inside the calipers, I don’t recommend taking them apart, it is just too much work for no gain. After all that work I feel I basically wasted a number of hours I could have spent riding!!
So I’m staring at it watching the rotor move in and out probably a 1/16” while I apply the brake, puzzled by this, because it didn’t make sense then I realized the rotor was actually moving the other way at the other end of the pad…. And even to my eye it looked as though the caliper was flexing but this can’t possibly be it – there is no way you are going to flex a casting as stout as that caliper!!!
Turns out that the powder coating on the forks, where the caliper mounts, was sort of chipped/peeling off, but unevenly, and causing the caliper to mount slightly “off” by a few degrees – a few minutes with a file to clean up the mounting surface fixed this up, and instantly improved matters by 100%. I have yet to ride anywhere other than the backyard with them, but am almost sure the problem is 100% fixed. I went from barely being able to lock the front wheel, and basically being able to pull the lever all the way to the bar, to being able to do nice controlled rolling stoppies, and having a nice firm lever. These brakes are every bit as good, now, as the AJP’s on my 2011. I think – I will know for sure on Tuesday!
So to summarize, if you are not happy with the Formula ABS brakes, I would recommend the following steps:
- disassemble and clean the master cylinder.
- lube the lever pivots
- adjust the levers inwards - they are quite a bit shorter than standard AJP levers, you can`t have room for more than two fingers on these.
- make sure the caliper is straight to the rotor and the rotor is not deflecting as the brakes are applied (and conversely springing the pads out when you let off the brakes) - this used up a lot of lever travel on miine and the misalignment was affecting performance too.
(edit - I have also heard from a more than reputable source that switching to dot 5 silicone fluid helps clear things up too - but that does require a complete clean/flush of the system)
I`d love to hear any feedback on this - good luck and keep your feet up!!!
Contact the Upper Midwest Trials Assn http://www.umta.org great group of guys.
Aw shucks...... well, yes we are great guys. He looked us up through our website and we're trading emails (UMTA is "local" to me even though I am Canada it's only a 5 hour drive to most events for me!) - Scott, you can see, it's a small world, everyone knows everyone else. It's a great community that way. Many of the USA guys and gals "hang out" at the trials forums at ADVRIDER and Thumpertalk (more so than here, even) so it's worth a check. One of those forums even has a thread on backyard practice areas but it sound like you might have even better terrain!
I am sure the people at hope have better things to do than develop products, test them, and then NOT sell them. Just a matter of when, I should think. Someone mentioned on the FB page that they should make hubs too...... which they seem to be good at as well.
Nice to see their interest in the mototrials market!
Well I took my Formula Front brake m/c off and disconnected it from the hose - depressing the plunger by hand I have to say it did feel kind of graunchy - like is was dirty, and not running in the bore smoothly.
I took it apart, did not notice anything untoward, but still the piston didn't seem to run in the bore smoothly at all, but then I cleaned the whole thing inside out and upside down with brake cleaner and voila - it felt like you would expect. Re-assembled and now it seems much smoother than before when running the plunger in and out by hand.
In the few minutes I have spent on the bike, I really liked the feel of the brake and didn't notice this lack of smoothness, but have done this as prevention. I am going to do the clutch as well, and also check the front caliper.
This is worrisome.... but at the same time puzzling. Not to diminish the pains the OP is feeling, but really, these components are pretty simple as hydrauilic systems go.... nothing mysterious hiding behind the circlip. So whatever trouble there is with these must be easy to find and fix permanently.
One thing for sure I will be taking mine apart to make sure the are clean inside, and that everything is burr-free in the master cyclinder bore and clean within the reservoir. Will report back with my findings.
I have dissected the assembly to a certain point, and really can say I am thoroughly impressed with the formula front brake setup. The master cyl/lever is well engineered and made of quality stuff, pivot pin is stainless steel, no more floppy levers, although I did note the pivot was as dry as a bone, so maybe a bit of lubrication is in order......and the edges of the machined portions of the main casting do seem to have escaped any sort of de-burring attention.
It is also lighter than the AJP setup, by 3 ounces for the front brake assembly - marginal weight loss only but nice to see a move in the right direction.
So..... I am optimistic that these teething pains will be worth it in the end.
Anyone else have any problems or comments? The forums seem to be pretty quiet about these, but there must be quite a few sets out there by now?
i like the way the front brake lever is already bent to save you having to drop it yourself !
given some issues with formula that new hope kit might be the way forward, great business oppurtunity for them
I've missed something along the way - Hope is making Motorcycle brakes now? That might be good, they make nice pushbike stuff, but then so does Formula....
I picked one up last week, but had an event on the weekend so chose to ride the old bike (last years 300 Racing). I learned last year not to ride a new bike in an event - had similar problems with the old bike - knocking(solved by running VP C12), stalling (changed float height), draggy clutch (changed to lighter fluid (ATF) and took some time to "come in").
The little bit of time I had on the NEW bike leads me to believe I will have the same issues - and would not blame the clutch cylinder quite yet, get the adjustment, lever position, trans fluid, etc. all sorted first. I found the clutch, if nothing else, to be nice and light with progressive engagement, but does drag a bit and have a "slow" takeup.
Overall, I think once you have time to break it in a bit and make it "your bike" you will be pleased.
Just curious, who/what are "REVERSE" shown on the side of this years Raga's? I assume its one of his sponsors, but I've googled it, and can't figure out who they are, or what they sell.
I am pretty sure it the manufacturer of the midpipe/muffler. "Revbase" is apparently pronounced "Reverse", IIRC.
At the point your front wheel touches the rock, you need to be jumping UP!! You are not going to be able to do that unless you bend your knees. Nearly all the videos illustrate that your legs are nearly locked straight when you are going up and over the concrete tubes, when they should be bent.
Watch the "pros", they are always crouched down ready to jump.
You will succeed and learn faster than you ever imagined if you concentrate on BENDING YOUR KNEES. At all times, no matter what you are doing. Don't forget to bend your arms too. It works like magic. Once you start doing it you realize the bike and your body have to move completely independently.
Hope that helps and keep us informed of your progress!!!
I am trying to check and possibly adjust the oil level in my front forks.
I found a document at Trialsparts USA showing how to do this, easy as 1, 2, 3.... from this and searching and the manual that came with the bike I know that it should be 160mm from the top of the fork to the oil level, although there seems to be some debate over if this should be with the forks fully extended or fully compressed. Manual says "hydraulic rod extended" but the Document I found at Trialspartsusa indicates fully compressed. (edit - the 575mm dimension shown at both places indicates fully compressed.)
What is clear is that the oil level must be measured with the springs removed.
What I need to know - how to remove the springs? I have the caps unthreaded and with the forks compressed they stick out of the tubes, but I cannot see how to remove the springs. And I certainly don't want to screw anything up!
Thanks in advance!!!
(edit again - I added 15cc of oil to each leg in an effort to cure a tendency to "bottom" - seems to have helped)
Got same bike and some of the same issues.. Tore the carb apart and found the floats not level with each other.. tweaked the floats level and set floats at 19mm..seemed to help allot.
Hey 11gasgas, welcome to TC and thanks for the tip I will attempt to do the same. I see you're a UMTA rider am I going to see you on the 17th? Missed the trial yesterday did you make it?
I just got a new 300 Race and have noticed a few symptoms of what I think might be carb setup issues:
- stalling when pointed downhill
- p****** fuel out on the stairs when I'm taking it into the basement
- hard to start
- pinging/knocking on small throttle openings
And I'm pretty sure I can get rid of most of these by checking the float height and maybe limiting the travel and maybe routing the vent tube a little differently (or removing it entirely). It also seems like it might want a bigger pilot jet.
One thing I noticed, though, is that the carb is tilted to the right by marbe 10 degrees? I haven't rotated it since I got the bike but seems like it would be hard to do by mistake, so should I change it and expect it to help things?
I've signed up for fim-tv.com and am really enjoying the videos, the coverage is really good, 52 minutes of commercial free coverage for the latest indoor event in Marseille.
And, apparently you can watch the events live, too, but NOWHERE on the site can I find a time for this, or a schedule.
If anyone has this info, could you post a link or maybe a news item with not only the dates, but the times, of the remaining broadcasts?
Checking Nightmare
in USA Trials
Posted
I was at the CO rounds and think the marker rule is universally disliked (from what I can tell) - it changed the results of the pro class on Saturday and caused some difficulty for checkers (whose lives are hard enough.... THANKS FOR CHECKING!!!!)