3 Or A 5

[lineaway]

Try explaining the current rules to a new rider/observer - yeah, see that guy that just rode through without putting a single foot down? Well, he just got a 5 (his rear wheel span on a loose rock and he stopped moving forward briefly) and that other guy that paddled his way through has beaten him by a clear 2 marks as he's only got a 3!

It's ridiculous.

Yes, you could have a top rider 3 every section if he stopped moving forward 3 or more times but at least he wouldn't get a 5 without ever putting his foot down! and don't you think he'd be doing his best not to stop and balance 3 times in a section?

Another angle to this is that stopping and balancing feet up is a sign of some skill, balance and control (what I thought trials was about). Surely we shouldn't be actively discouraging that?

I guess this just shows that even us riders can't agree so what chance do the powers that be have to make rules we all like?

At the end of the day, we should be riding and observing to the rules as written, not bending them because we don't necessarily agree with them.

Just to finish, you don't have to ride no stop - there is TSR22A "stop permitted" in ACU events. Clubs can opt for that if that's what the riders want. Our Club and Combine events are no stop but we have a team trial soon that is stop permitted. I'll let you know my thoughts on that after I've ridden it.

Tough, the rule is the same for all. It is a motorsport, if you stop in any other sport you are losing. I enjoyed to be able to stop and balance, but the FIM and others have changed the rules too many times. Are you not able to pick a line and actually ride?

[copemech]

Take a look at the above video and it is clear many riders are stopping yet probably getting threes.

ianw #38 makes the comment that globally the majority of riders do not want no stop. I can't comment globally and I don't think anyone else can without a proper poll.

What I can state with certainty is that in Northern England entries were in decline under stop allowed and are showing a useful recovery under no stop rules. Also traditional no stop trials always continued to be well supported.

Bike sales also were in severe decline under stop allowed.

If so many riders support stop permitted why are they not turning their backs on no stop trials and running their own stop permitted events?

We all know what Raga's view of non stop was, if a number of other top line riders and manufacturers shared his view why did they not go on strike from FIM non stop trials in protest?

I never intended this topic to be about stop or no stop, it was intended to be a discussion on hard or easy sections and marking stringency.

If a trial is run under no stop, it must be ridden and marked as such.

Recently a long time trials enthusiast expressed with some contempt the view that today's riders are cheats. the By enthusiast I mean someone who has travelled extensively to trials of all levels including WTC for many many years and is known to most trials central members and held in high regard.

I can enjoy watching both stop and no stop trials and it would be a great shame if Bou, Raga etc did not have somewhere to show their skills but the fact is (in my area at least) the great majority do not have the time nor the inclination to learn stop permitted skills and if stop permitted returns they will turn their backs on organised trials.

Good clip! I seen most stops in there for H&S reasons! (their own) As they are not stupid!

[copemech]

Tough, the rule is the same for all. It is a motorsport, if you stop in any other sport you are losing. I enjoyed to be able to stop and balance, but the FIM and others have changed the rules too many times. Are you not able to pick a line and actually ride?

No! I'm just like a good dog! Must stop and mark each section at least once!

[copemech]

But that's exactly the point - under TSR22B it DOES constitute a failure. Have a read.

It's just that you obviously don't like the rule, like a lot of others, so you're making up your own rules.

No, I am just old and slow! All depends upon just whom I may want to p*** off on a given day!

[perce]

Perce is right the sport has far bigger issues than petty squabbling over rules. I have said this previously. Environmental issues wont go away with stop / no stop or economic recovery. And the over 40s are rapidly turning 50 in my part of the world. Precious few young riders and thats not down to rules

A 1/3 of the SSDT entry rode as over 40 ( an awful lot of them are 50+) & as somebody on facebook posted, there's a fair chance of getting an over 40's winner in the next few years. I don't think the SSDT is particularly indicative of the average club trial entry, nearer 1/2 could be over 40. I'll bet if most of the clubs in the UK allowed kids to ride for free it would hardly dent their finances.

If they actually marked out WR sections that are no stop sections instead of stop section that are then ridden no stop it might all work but then I've watched what's gone on in the Yorkshire Center over the years, so I can't see that happening.

[smarty156]

Bring back Kickstart!

When I was on it in the mid 80s everybody knew what trials was, even if they weren't actually into motorbikes. So many times, if I told someone I rode trials, they'd say "what, like on Kickstart?".

[baldilocks]

Kickstart was an indoor run outdoors in a lot of ways. We currently have both world championships on the tv. This is what so many fail to grasp when saying we need more spectacular sections, we need more exposure. We actually have more coverage and more spectacular sections than ever before. But as an exercise in selling bikes both wtc's fail. As for rules the indoor allows stopping and reversing so why aren't the dealers selling bikes if stop permitted is what young riders want. Still plenty stop permitted trials about.

[lineaway]

Kickstart was an indoor run outdoors in a lot of ways. We currently have both world championships on the tv. This is what so many fail to grasp when saying we need more spectacular sections, we need more exposure. We actually have more coverage and more spectacular sections than ever before. But as an exercise in selling bikes both wtc's fail. As for rules the indoor allows stopping and reversing so why aren't the dealers selling bikes if stop permitted is what young riders want. Still plenty stop permitted trials about.

There you go again with common sense and obvious reasoning. Years ago the younger riders thought trials was boring. Now a days they know it is exciting, but takes too much effort to be a great rider. Trials has always been an older man sport as far as 70% of the rider entries went. Probably will never change it till it is gone forever.

[ianw]

The reason the conversation gets back to the same place each time is that non-stop is not really being run as non-stop in most places by most observers. Why, because the current rules are clearly too harsh, and everyone except Thierry Michaud seems to get that. The current non-stop rules were clearly flawed last year, yet the FIM doesn't amend them for this year. Go figure?

Non-stop trials is harder to ride for every advanced grade. It may be easier for grandpa, or a beginner, but not for skilled riders. Look at Toni Bou's score compared to the worst rider in that grade, and tell me again how it is helping encouraging lesser riders.

Does anyone have the global trials bike sales figures for the last couple of years? I am guessing that we should see increased bike sales with all of these riders loving non-stop now?

[atomant]

I would argue that non-stop has made absolutely no difference to the attendance rate to trials. The thing that does make a difference is section severity. When you see clubmen riding the beginners route, then you know something is wrong

Edited May 20, 2014 by atomant

[b40rt]

Non-stop trials is harder to ride for every advanced grade. It may be easier for grandpa, or a beginner, but not for skilled riders.

You will have to explain that again, so the better you get, the harder trials becomes ?

[smarty156]

In theory I was in favour of non stop trials. When I started riding again late last year (having not ridden for 5 years) I read the non stop rules and thought great. I'm not as fit as I used to be plus I was never that great at hopping etc anyway.

I ride "old school" - low revs, no stopping, no hopping or jumping if I don't need to.

Trouble is, as ianw said above, non-stop is not really being run as non-stop in most places by most observers (and I'd also add Clerks of Courses).

Why is that? Having observed a no stop trial now as well, I'm pretty sure it's because nobody really likes the current no stop rules as they are too harsh. As a rider I don't mind generally as it suits me but observers don't like it and it's the younger riders where we are (the ones that can and do hop and jump around a lot, even when they don't need to) that still ride the same (i.e. stopping and hopping) even in no stop trials. Observers are then being lenient with them which then makes a mockery of the no stop rules. Other riders then know they can get away with stopping and actually to be able to compete on a level playing field they have to ride the same. It's a shambles.

As an example, at a recent combine event one of the best experts in the area rode the first lap proper no stop. It was a hard trial and he lost a fair few marks. However, he also then realised that the other riders were riding as though it was stop permitted and getting away with it (which made riding the sections much easier). Obviously, he then did the same from then on and his subsequent lap scores were much less. Unfortunately it was too late by then as his first lap ruined his total score and he didn't win like he normally would.

We seem to have ended up with a hybrid set of rules, TSR22C - stop permitted as long as it's not too long but it's up to each observer what they think is too long, unless they're feeling particularly harsh and then you can't stop at all!

Personally, I don't think it makes much difference to the attendance at trials either. People will ride, if they like the look of trials, whatever the rules (I don't like them but I still ride the trials). It's just a shame the rules aren't really working.

The biggest problem where we are is lack of land. That means the same old pieces of land (usually small) are used time and again, mostly with similar sections. I think some people then get bored of the same old, same old.

[dadof2]

We seem to have ended up with a hybrid set of rules, TSR22C - stop permitted as long as it's not too long but it's up to each observer what they think is too long, unless they're feeling particularly harsh and then you can't stop at all!

I thing smarty may have hit the nail on the head with the above observation

[ianw]

smarty156, I hope someone in high places reads your post, because it sums up the situation perfectly.

Toni Bou is really the only rider in the world that makes non-stop look good, but most of the observers at WTC level bend the rules to give the other guys a chance at his expense. It is a shambles. The same thing happens at small events all around the world. It doesn't matter if you are in favour of stop or non-stop, you can see that the current rules are unfair and divisive, and do not encourage riders to have a good go at cleaning a section. If in doubt, put your foot down and keep moving. It is nonsense.

Although I firmly believe that for trials to survive the rules should go back to 'stop-allowed' , failing that, the current rules need urgent amendment.

The penalty should be 1 for a stop of more than 3 seconds.

Additionally, I believe that you should be able to score '5' made up of either 5 stops or 5 dabs, to encourage riders to keep trying to ride correctly.

[lineaway]

In theory I was in favour of non stop trials. When I started riding again late last year (having not ridden for 5 years) I read the non stop rules and thought great. I'm not as fit as I used to be plus I was never that great at hopping etc anyway.

I ride "old school" - low revs, no stopping, no hopping or jumping if I don't need to.

Trouble is, as ianw said above, non-stop is not really being run as non-stop in most places by most observers (and I'd also add Clerks of Courses).

Why is that? Having observed a no stop trial now as well, I'm pretty sure it's because nobody really likes the current no stop rules as they are too harsh. As a rider I don't mind generally as it suits me but observers don't like it and it's the younger riders where we are (the ones that can and do hop and jump around a lot, even when they don't need to) that still ride the same (i.e. stopping and hopping) even in no stop trials. Observers are then being lenient with them which then makes a mockery of the no stop rules. Other riders then know they can get away with stopping and actually to be able to compete on a level playing field they have to ride the same. It's a shambles.

As an example, at a recent combine event one of the best experts in the area rode the first lap proper no stop. It was a hard trial and he lost a fair few marks. However, he also then realised that the other riders were riding as though it was stop permitted and getting away with it (which made riding the sections much easier). Obviously, he then did the same from then on and his subsequent lap scores were much less. Unfortunately it was too late by then as his first lap ruined his total score and he didn't win like he normally would.

We seem to have ended up with a hybrid set of rules, TSR22C - stop permitted as long as it's not too long but it's up to each observer what they think is too long, unless they're feeling particularly harsh and then you can't stop at all!

Personally, I don't think it makes much difference to the attendance at trials either. People will ride, if they like the look of trials, whatever the rules (I don't like them but I still ride the trials). It's just a shame the rules aren't really working.

The biggest problem where we are is lack of land. That means the same old pieces of land (usually small) are used time and again, mostly with similar sections. I think some people then get bored of the same old, same old.

Very well stated. If the rules are not being followed, (No matter which they might be.) the result will not be an actual competition. More like a free for all. I once rode a trial that the time was set incorrectly as no one would finish except the first few riders. But only if they rode very fast. The sanctioning body was always strict on time, so 95% of the riders would have timed out. The sporting steward from the host club made up his own rules to get everyone finished in time. We were passing other riders within the sections to hurry the event along. Two and three riders at a time in the sections. Crazy, yes. But it was fun in a strange way. If everyone is not riding the same rules, it is basically just chaos.