2016 Vertigo 300 capacitor

[JBROWN]

Hi can anyone advise how to test this capacitor from a 2016 Vertigo (it’s got the batteryless upgrade). I can use a multimeter and read micro farads etc, I just don’t know the valves I should see (there are 3 pins, nothing written on the unit). Also would this being faulty cause failure to start (definitely no spark) ?

[lemur]

Generally the capacitor is not a tremendously expensive or special part and worth stocking a spare to test or replace, the primary reason it is on there is because your bike is fuel injected and Fi needs DC power in the form of a battery and or capacitor to supply sufficient electrical power to the DC fuel pump.  Symptom of a failed cap on your ride would be lack of fuel pressure not lack of spark.

[konrad]

A capacitor is a 2-terminal device.  The third terminal is likely connected to one of the others to simplify the bike's wiring.

For reference, the OSSA's capacitor is approximately 22000 uF.  Most multimeters will not read a capacitor value that large.   10000 uF is a typical limit.

If you connect the capacitor to your multimeter on the ohms setting, the resistance will appear small initially, and gradually increase as the capacitor charges.  You can then short the capacitor leads together (discharging it) and repeat the observation. 

The multimeter will charge the capacitor to something on the order of 350 millivolts.  Once the capacitor is charged, switch the multimeter to read volts (or better yet, millivolts).  The capacitor should hold that charge for a long time (perhaps hours) but you will be able it see it slowly discharge due to the drain imposed by the multimeter.

Passing these tests does not guarantee a good capacitor, but it's better than nothing and about all the DIY mechanic can do.

P.S. An electrolytic capacitor is a polarized device. Operating one at its rated voltage backwards will destroy it.  But when testing will a multimeter, polarity is not a concern.  This is because the voltage is so low, no damage will occur.

Edited August 10 by konrad

[JBROWN]

Thank you for your reply. There is 499 K ohms resistance (increasing) and 504mv dc through the red and back wires (which would have originally been connected to the 9v battery)

Edited August 10 by JBROWN

[lemur]

If there is no spark start by checking the stator windings and ignition pickup outputs, your spark plug does not use the capacitor to make a spark.  

... interesting that one would consider a capacitor to be an upgrade to a battery 🤔 if I was building fuel injected motorcycles I would think a capacitor in place of a battery would be a cost and possibly weight saving measure, not a performance improvement.   Both are power storage devices but a battery maintains an electric charge for a considerable time where a capacitor retains a charge until it is discharged and then it becomes basically flat or dead.  The cap won't charge until you start cranking the kickstarter, a battery in theory would be ready to provide full power right from the first kick.

[JBROWN]

Hi and thanks for your reply, I didn’t upgrade to the capacitor- it was apparently a dealer/manufacturer ‘upgrade’ made worse by the fact no local dealers or Vertigo UK have a wiring diagram for a 2016/2017 bike !

 

I will start with the stator etc tonight. Thanks again

Edited August 11 by JBROWN

[lemur]

imho an upgrade would be to keep the small battery and add a capacitor and if it is only a cold start problem install a jumper port where you can easy plug in a small power supply. 

[JBROWN]

I have tested the stator 0.6 ohms between 1-2, 1-3 and 2-3. No continuity to ground so that should be ok.the pick up is 101 ohms.

 

Edited August 11 by JBROWN

[lemur]

I use an oscilloscope to test the AC outputs, nothing beats that, your pickup coil should ohm meter test easy and be adjusted (if possible) for the closest proximity to the magnets to optimize performance, pickup is simply a field coil that initiates the spark and provides timing for the fuel injection.

[JBROWN]

So assuming there is a spark at the pickup would that then travel to the coil primary ?

[konrad]

3 hours ago, JBROWN said:

So assuming there is a spark at the pickup would that then travel to the coil primary ?

The electrical system on an EFI bike has very little in common with even a modern carbureted bike. 

Even though my website is specifically about OSSAs, there is a lot you can generalize about EFI 2-strokes from it: https://www.ossa-efi.com/home/electrics

At the very least, it will give you an idea of the complexity involved.

[lemur]

17 hours ago, JBROWN said:

So assuming there is a spark at the pickup would that then travel to the coil primary ?

No spark happens at the pickup coil, it's just a coil that briefly produces a small electric charge that in all reasonable logic goes to a little black box ignition control module just like a regular motorcycle, that in turn sends an amplified charge to the secondary coil producing the spark at the spark plug.

I'll bet everything to do with the fuel injection is just like any other electric pump fuel injection system and everything to do with the modern 2-stroke motor making a spark at the spark plug is just like every other modern 2-stroke motorcycle that makes a spark at the spark plug.   ... You do have 2 small black boxes, one is going to be dedicated to the Fi and one is going to be the ignition, odds are nobody short of the original manufacturer knows what is inside them which might be Hitachi or some such company.

Edited August 12 by lemur

[konrad]

4 hours ago, lemur said:

...you do have 2 small black boxes, one is going to be dedicated to the Fi and one is going to be the ignition...

I'm going to agree with lemur on this.

@JBROWN asked about the "POWER BOX" in a different thread.  I found a Vertigo service manual on-line.  It's probably similar to what you have.  The mechanical descriptions are very good.  The electrical descriptions are the exact opposed. 

The part labeled POWER BOX has a 12-wire connector.  It is separate from the ECU. 

I'm thinking the ECU may be a fairly standard design for 4-strokes.  If so, the POWER BOX may add a Capacitive Discharge Ignition and DC-DC boost converter.  A CDI is de rigueur for any modern 2-stroke. Twelve wires is a lot for that type of functionality, so the POWER BOX may be doing other things as well.

I suggest figuring out where the ignition coil primary wire connects.  The lack of a wiring diagram is a huge impediment to understanding the system.  You'd be doing the Vertigo community a great service by drawing as much of it as you can and putting it in the public domain. 

[JBROWN]

Hi just a quick update, I peeled back a lot of the loom tape to get an idea where the various wires went. In doing so I found a few suspect terminations and 2 wires that had detached themselves (1 on the map button and 1 to the fan switch?) I also found poor connections inside the 12 pin plug to the powerbox so I replaced it with a new one (it’s a molex mx150 plug from eBay) I tested the stator, pick up and coil etc and found them to be ok. I then attempted to start the bike and after a few kicks it fired and ran for a second before dying.
I kicked it a few more times and it backfired (hopefully because the air filter wasn’t fitted?) then it ran at idle for 30 seconds before cutting out. I will get a new plug and fresh fuel etc and try to restart it later this week. I will of course report back. 

Edited August 14 by JBROWN

[JBROWN]

Well I took it to a trials park and it wouldn’t start again, despite fitting a new plug and fresh fuel. Even after a couple of attempted bumping starts on a nice grassy banking there was nothing (thankfully I took my other bike as well).