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michael_t

Wtc Vs Cma - Why Not Have Both?

126 posts in this topic

The forum on the Trials Canada has been closed. One of the issues on that forum was that every time a person wanted to talk about anything trials in Canada it quickly became a debate about the Pros and Cons of the different organizations. In attempt to put an end to that I am suggesting we use this thread for such discussion and can simply refer to it instead of having the same arguments in every new thread opened.

We will need to police this ourselves but I suggest when ever a person feels the urge to slam or promote a trials organization we can refer them to do it in this thread. People who would rather not partake in the discussion can avoid it.

I also suggest we keep it about the organizations and not have it turn into personal attacks on peoples intelligence or mental stability.

Edited by michael_t

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My personal belief is there is room and the necessity for both. I do see the need for the CMA and its affiliation with FIM for people who see value in that. It may be that in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) we are a still a bit to Scotch but there seems to be a resistance to sending $75 per person to Ontario for "the good of the sport". The CMA had a large presence in NS for many years with both Hare Scrambles and Trials but due to lack of support both sports where pretty much wiped out. We are slowly rebuilding but are doing it through the support of our own Provincially supported Off Road Riding Association which is funded by the Motorcyclist Confederation of Canada (MCC), The Department of Health (tax payers), The Department of Environment (collects an OHV fund from all OHVs registered in NS to the tune of $1.4M just for OHV user to use) and sponsors such as Beta, Sherco, Honda, Kawi, and local bike shops. Our members are strongly encouraged to join the organization (NSORRA) for $20 a year. Bottom line we have tremendous financial support so the fees don't have to be huge.

When starting out I had never been to a trials event so went in search of a national body that could provide a rule book and the ability to be part of a wider rider community. with the local community being not very happy with the CMA the WTC was an easy choice (and it is also affiliated with MCC).

Actually a number of motor sports have broken away from the CMA. The idea that people will continue to send money (I don't really care how much) to an organization that is not directly supporting riding in your community is a tough sell.

This really has nothing to do with the current CMA TAC and its members and much more to do with the CMA as a larger organization that in the past took advantage of what it felt was a monopoly on motorsports. At the risk of p****** off an even larger community I could lump the FIM into the same category, I am sure they do great things but they need to be better able to articulate what it is they are doing for a Joe blow just looking for a fun place to ride with his buddies.

I have talked to the head of the CMA in Canada (as well as Steve and Derek) and pointed out that if I ask the 25 local riders (who currently only ride locally) to pay $75 each exactly what will be done with that $1,875. ? To be truthful it isn't that much money and I could easily get it from NSORRA (if I asked nicely) and sign all the riders up if they liked it or not - but why would I? It is fine to say "to support trials in Canada" but to be honest I don't trust the CMA and it has absolutely nothing to do with Steve or Derek. We are happy to send money to the TdN team as we know exactly what it is being used for (hopefully beer). For the time being I do encourage people to join the CMA if they want to ride at away events that the CMA supports and I may join myself but just don't have what I need to sell it to the entire club.

Just my .02

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If you are confused about who the National sanctioning body is, do some research. If you want to ride the Scottish one day, or, any motorcycle event outside of North America ( you will need an AMA licence to ride in US Nationals) who do you call to get your international license? Again, I urge you to start thinking about the future of the sport in Canada!

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Steve had some outstanding questions about the WTC so I will do my best to answer them from my own perspective as I see it:

What are the goals of the WTC? To provide a standard set of rules and insurance for any club in the country that is looking for a lower cost option to get started in the sport of trials. My own experience has been the members (people who are associated with WTC) have been very friendly and helpful in answering questions about putting on events and the sport in general.

Why does it call itself a National sanctioning body? Because it has a national presence (actually has trials in more Provinces than the CMA) It provides a rule book (to keep a set standard for events across the country) and looks for input into its rule book across all of its members, when requested it provides $5M liability insurance for trial events in this country. It even has an east and west national championship. Safe and fair events for all is what is being sanctioned should be all about (our sponsors agree).

Who appointed them? Self appointed - luckily it is a free country.

How does a " National sanctioning body" intend on being sustainable when there are no memberships, no fees, no members? If the purpose is to have set standard of safe events across the country it can be run very well by volunteers and a few good sponsors without having to send money to some foreign body. BTW Google seems pretty sustainable I use it all the time and have never paid any fees - Wealthy Sponsors help :)?

How does WTC think that they are helping the sport in Canada when they try to undermine the only National sanctioning body? I guess we don't agree that there is only one National body and are happy to provide an alternative for those that want to get into the sport. It seems to be working as the events continue to grow. If that undermines the CMA they may want to think about working with the WTC instead of against it.

You raise money in your club to go towards the Tdn team, yet, the WTC has absolutely nothing to do with it, or fund it? That one is on me I organize our events but do it fro free... We raise more money than we need I know some WTC clubs put money towards more worthwhile things like cancer research... I decided on behalf of the club that I would like to support Jonathan and the TdN team. Not exactly what your point is (would you rather only accept support from CMA members?)

I am fully aware I would need to join the CMA if I want to ride internationally but seen as I have never ridden in an event I didn't help organize I think I will be riding WTC events in Quebec first and if that goes well maybe I will think of becoming an international rider - Which I am sure will thrill my sponsors :D but at 52 chances are not great.

Now I have just a couple of question for the CMA...

If I had our members join the CMA and sent the CMA a cheque for $1,875.00 what will be done with it?

How much would go to the FIM? How much towards the profits of the CMA (as it is a for profit company)?, how much to salaries for CMA staff? and what would the actually benefit the local rider who is only interested in riding local events?

BTW you may want to look at the other national sanctioning bodies supported by the MCC that do not fall under the CMA. Maybe attend an annual Motorcycle Hall of Fame Dinner put on by the MCC to see which trials riders are being honoured.

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#1- to me your answer to this one is like re-inventing the wheel. There have been standard sets of rules for trials for decades and decades, and, currently WTC has their own, which quite frankly don't agree with anyone elses. To help clubs lower costs? That's one of the goals? Ive ridden, organized and attended trials in just about every place in North America, all trials people are friendly and helpful.

 

#2- A "National presence" and self appointed, got it, wow! BTW, WTC does not have trials in more provinces. BC (vmc and cpta) held provincial championships, Alberta has the SGC, Sask, Ont.  There are "WTC sanctioned trials: in the interior of BC, but there is no club. A few riders in the interior tossed around the idea of forming a club, but were discouraged from doing so! ( very friendly and informative). The ATRA is also in AB, Quebec and NS.You brought this point up not me. All things trials in Canada being run through our National body, are now discussed and voted on through the TAC.

 

#3- I was unaware there was an issue of unsafe events being run without proper rules. Trials clubs across the country have been run by volunteers forever, and I wasn't aware that there was such a need for safe and fair events, this will be a shock to clubs who have been doing it wrong for many many years. I was also unaware that our National body was seen as foreign? huh?

 

#4- You didn't answer that one. We have two large clubs out west here, one of which is trials only. Its been very successful and has held two world rounds and numerous Nationals and regional evens.

 

I don't think you really truly understand the landscape, or the task at hand. Clubs that are strong and put fun events on for its members are successful.  My personal opinion is, if anyone truly has any inkling about the future of our sport, they would understand the need to be united. You seem to be threatened by our National body. You should direct any questions you have about the CMA, to the head office, I am not in a position to answer for them. I asked you questions regarding the intentions and goals of WTC. Standard rules, safe and fair events? There isn't a need for any so called organization to achieve those goals.

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Morning Steve,

To tell the truth I originally thought your questions where rhetorical questions in order to make a point rather than to elicit an answer. After your second request to have them answered I gave it my best shot (sorry if I missed on #4). The long and the short of it is you are correct it is re inventing the wheel and at the end of the day maybe there isn't truly a need for and sanctioning body little lone 2 as everyone knows the rules and tends to be safe about it. So what is the purpose of the CMA as a national sanctioning body? other than the fact that they have an affiliation with the FIM and require fees to pay their staff members in support of a number of other motorsports in Canada? - you can take that as rhetorical is you like.

I have repeatedly asked the CMA what they would do with the $1,875.00 (if I sent it) and still have no answer (or clue). I'm a little disappointed that as the head of the TAC you are not able to speak on behalf of the CMA but you obviously send them a cheque every year would it be fair to ask your own personal opinion where you believe your money has gone? You have repeatedly asked me to talk to the WTC to better understand what they are about so I have and am satisfied with the answers I have received. I have also asked the CMA many of the same questions and am still waiting for answers before deciding if it is worth investing in as a local rider.

I should say that if I was an international rider I feel I would have no choice but to join the CMA... and I am fine with that but I would still like to understand where the money goes and what exactly it is being used for. Maybe this is more an issue with FIM than it is with CMA it just seems nobody is allowed to tell me.

I am not threatened by the CMA they are asking me for money and I am saying no. I have people call and ask me for money almost everyday for one charity or the other some I say yes to some I say no to I do not find it threatening in any way and actually appreciate the opportunity to support a good cause but I always expect to be told where the money is going before I decide to support it.

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Just for the record according to Wiki...

A sports governing body is a sports organisation that has a regulatory or sanctioning function. Sports governing bodies come in various forms, and have a variety of regulatory functions. Examples of this can include disciplinary action for rule infractions and deciding on rule changes in the sport that they govern. Governing bodies have different scopes. They may cover a range of sport at an international level, such as the International Olympic Committee and the International Paralympic Committee, or only a single sport at a national level, such as the Rugby Football League. National bodies may or may not be affiliated to international bodies for the same sport. The first international federations were formed at the end of the 19th century

So why have more than sanctioning body?... If an organization does not listen to its members it will not be supported by them. This is not an issue for the current TAC but a big issue with the CMA head office which seems to have upset people in the past and are unwilling to own it.

I did check on incorporation and the WEC has been incorporated for many year as a "for profit" similar to the CMA and the trials division (the WTC) sits under the WEC in the same way the Trials group and the TAC sit under the CMA.

As far as Derek's analogy to hockey - If I decided to setup a free pond hockey league and encouraged people to get out and participate on ponds across the country to have fun and unwind with friends. I really don't think the hockey association would say we were undermining the sport of hockey in this country. We might even open the sport up to a whole group of people who simply enjoy the good old days when you could get together with a group of friends and have a fun game of hockey - heck you could even make up your own rules like big brothers had to wear a sneaker on one foot. Most importantly it is getting people out to enjoy a great sport not undermining it.

Edited by michael_t

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You can lead a horse to water........ I guess I don't know much after 40yrs plus of riding and promoting the sport in Canada and the US. As well the resume's of the fine people on the TAC. I"m sure the self appointed National sanctioning body is much wiser, and after a few more years of organizing safe events with rules, that our sport here in Canada will be much further ahead. But at least you have confirmed that the self appointed National sanctioning body for trials, WTC, is merely an advisory group to the WEC. A registered group, but, again, an endure association. I'm glad that there is a broad spectrum that has  a clear vision. You obviously are pretty happy with your situation. Good luck.

 

I know exactly what the WTC is, as do most people. I know why it was formed, and it will never succeed. I am sad though that good people like you and your group are being mis-guided. I hope one day you can see clearly what is going on. That may not happen for a while.

 

FYI, I am sure Derek will be able to answer any direct CMA questions for you, but, nothing will satisfy you I feel. I guess its all a massive conspiracy. OMG. what a waste.

Edited by steve fracy

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I wouldn't give up on anybody too quickly - As I say this has way more to do with the CMA of the past (and maybe the FIM), if it has truly changed this is a great forum to promote a new more transparent organization and win over the support of the country. As I have said all along I have nothing against joining but the older riders are a really tough sell so I simply need more than "the CMA support trials in Canada". As Canadians we are never good at blowing our own horns but sometimes it is needed. 

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I am not sure that there is a need for the WTC in trials. When it comes to providing the necessary support for National or International level events, we should all under a single National body. On a local level, the local clubs can choose to follow the Mongolian rules for all it matters, but probably should not except for a unique annual event.

 

The CMA is in the best position to support trials riders on a national and international level, and therefore should be supported by the riders in regional events as well.

 

It is true that the average trials rider will see very little first hand benefit from joining the CMA, but belonging to a club that has the CMA affiliation certainly has benefits for the riders wanting to progress to higher levels of competition.

 

We riders in the Vancouver, Britannia, Squamish, Whistler and Pemberton area have started the process of forming what I expect will be one of the largest and well supported trials organizations in the country, and I will put forward a motion to have us affiliate with the CMA. To gauge the size of the sport in our little valley, simply visit the 99 Trials FB page.

 

Last thought; this subject is dead, let each organization promote their "product" and see where the chips land, there is no point in continuing to drag the conversation through the public eye.

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Well put Spencer! I suspect the turnout so far this year for the first ever Provincial championship in BC, and in particular in Squamish this year, is a testament to this and the organizers of that event....YOU! Thanks. I would suggest to anyone that if you need more information about trials in Canada and your area, re-check who the members of the TAC are. You can contact any of us at any time.

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I have posted on this site, I have talked in Person with Jonathan and over the phone with Steve and Marilyn (head of the CMA) and I have emailed Derek. Everyone is great to talk to and all have the best interest for trials in mind. However it seems everyone agrees there would (currently) be no benefit to the local riders for them to join the CMA. We have donated well over $1,000 to the CMA TdN team and as far as I know that is (currently) the CMAs only international trials endeavour (despite not sending a team this year). If there is a requirement for further funds just explain what they are for. I am at a loss why nobody seems to be able to answer this basic question... I love supporting trials but if the funds go to the CMA to support all the other facets of motorcycling I would rather keep the funds local to build more riding opportunities and trials events.    

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Oh I suppose I should mention I really like Paul Yvonne as well. I have not had the opportunity to talk to Christy but have heard that she is very nice and a great Trials enthusiast. I was reviewing the CMA web page and see the nomination for Board members closes on October 8th in case anyone is interested.

 

I was also reviewing the CMA trials results page and see 14 events listed for BC,SK and ON. On the WTC page they are missing our 5 Maritime events but Bob said he would get them up there at some point, that would give us 33 events for QC, BC, AB, NS and NB. My feeling is that having more events in more provinces is helping more than hindering - combined we have 47 events across 6 Provinces that is truly the best part of having the 2 groups they both have a lot to offer and should be celebrated equally.    

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Its becoming pointless to communicate the climate of trials in Canada as I don't feel you truly understand the landscape. That is due to you being fairly new, not a bad thing, just pointing it out. By far the largest contingency of riders in my province belong to two actual, organized and registered clubs. The rest are not organized or belong to any club. AB is extremely tiny group, so is  yours. Quebec is large and been around for a long time. It seems you are more content with being apart of something, not what they stand for, and not for the benefit and betterment of the sport as a whole in this country. There is a strong belief and movement going whether you believe it or not.

 

If you belong to a club, and in general, there is NO use or need for the WTC.

Edited by steve fracy

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I feel you may not want to further communicate about trials in Canada as you are unable or unwilling to answer my question as to where do the CMA funds go. This despite the length of time you may or may not have been paying them (lets not forget the CTRA days). 

 

As the WTC is a part of the MCC and its affiliated provincial organization might I suggest people read why they suggest you join... http://www.motorcycling.ca/join/

 

and compare it to the CMA webpage and why they feel you should join http://www.canmocycle.ca/

 

Seems pretty similar to me with respect to trying to support motorcycling in Canada the big difference being the MCC has been a substantial financial supporter of off road riding in NS for many years and the CMA has been a financial supporter of the FIM. Both are important and I see the benefit of both but if people are suggesting we have to choose then my choice is clear.

 

I have been invited to Parliament Hill to speak on behalf of Motorcyclist as part of MCC. The CMA seems to be implying that I know little and that by being a sponsored rider and putting on free events and large demonstrations in front of 1,000s of people  I am somehow undermining Motorcycling in Canada.

 

If you don't want to answer the question that is fine but please don't suggest I am not worth speaking to.

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