Maco thanks for bringing this up. We had a discussion in this thread and others suggested something to try. Seaton Delaval club had an event coming up at a suitable venue so agreed to try out a conducted adult course.
On the Thursday evening this was publicised via trialscentral calendar, front page, this thread and Facebook.
By lunchtime on Friday Stanley Club had announced a similar event on the preceding day. Stanley are staging the same event again this week.
More events for beginners is a good thing but why didnt they just run this weekend ? Too many trials in a centre aimed at the same riders is part of our centres problem with low entries.
Stanley got 19 riders for combined trial and tuition, Seaton Delaval got about 40 for a centre trial including conducted adults and beginners. One trial with 60 entries each weekend would surely have been a better result for both clubs and for the riders who would have met more fellow beginners.
I'd guess that Stanley decided to run the trial because of the distance people had to travel to get to your Sunday trial. Possibly thinking they would get good numbers.
I was away for that weekend so couldn't attend either, but with Seaton delevals trial being 70 mile from myself & Butsfield been around 15 mile I would of rode the Saturday & not the Sunday.
Stanley ran a tuition day one Wednesday night a few month back & had always planned to do more throughout the year because they got a good turn out. Around 15 of us if I remember rightly.
Like you say, more beginners trials to get people into the sport the better.
The original question posed in this thread was ‘where are all the entries?’ - this gracefully morphed into ‘how to attract new people into the sport?’. 8 pages of opinion later and the good people organising the Seaton Delaval trial decided to take some action and host a conducted trial for adult beginners. Well, I was one of three adult beginners who signed up, all of us rather predictably male, white and hunting down middle age so we may have increased participation but we did nothing for diversity! Perhaps a topic for another day.
I will not go over the format of the day as this has already been described in a previous post, I would rather focus on the question in hand and feedback on my experience.
The only reason I (and I suspect the other two) attended this particular trial was because it was conducted. This immediately voids any comment around the fact that it was not worth the effort. Three new riders, each buying a bike, riding gear and a load of new parts to get those bikes up to spec - the person I bought my bike off only sold it in order to buy a new one - show me one thing here which is not a positive. Given that trials is a minority sport I can not imagine it attracting any more than 1 or 2 new riders per month in a region so we should not be disheartened by what could be considered a low number - it is unlikely there are hundreds of people out there sitting on sofas in boots and helmet wishing they could take part. So lets be happy with 3 for now.
All of this must be looked at from a beginners point of view, all you long termers can have your say, and constructive suggestions are always good but if you want the answer to a question - ask the people who might have the answer.
A lot of people thinking about getting into trials will be like me, had road bikes for years, maybe had a field bike or two when they were younger so riding the bike has never been a barrier to me entering a trial, the barrier was always not wanting to look like a fool in front of other riders and having watched several trials, the whole thing looked very intimidating. As a beginner I don’t see trials as a sport, I see it as enjoying riding a motorcycle, a Sunday activity, I don’t care about the points, I don’t want to be competitive (for now). Having a conducted trial was EXACTLY what I needed, enabling me to feel comfortable and confident in an otherwise unfamiliar and mildly stressful environment.
While advertising it as a ‘conducted trial’ may be technically correct, advertising it as something like ‘help and guidance for beginners available’ would be more appropriate so anyone reading the event details knows exactly what they can expect. Ask your Auntie Dot what she understands by ‘a conducted trial’ and I suspect she will not give you the answer you were looking for. If we want to encourage new people into trials we should always try and remove any barriers which prevent people understanding what it is, how it works and how to get involved. If that means breaking with the odd tradition or accepted norms, so be it. As I alluded to earlier, if you want to know what the barriers are, ask the people to whom there are barriers
I have already thanked Ray Crinson & Glen Quinn for managing us through the trial on the day and on a local forum, however I would like to do so once again. And for any other clubs considering similar conducted trials I would say it is important to use people who have the correct temperament to do the conducting. Both Ray & Glen approached it with a great attitude, calmness and the ability to clearly describe sections / bike inputs etc.
The three of us went home with a sense of achievement and I suspect Ray & Glen did the same. I already have several trials penciled into the calendar so it would appear this adult conducted trial experiment was very much worth the effort, for me at least. It might be that no new people show up but at least the door is open for people to have a look inside and just maybe they will walk through. All clubs should offer adult conducted trials - it’s a no-brainer and cost neutral.
Would I suggest changing anything? Nope, all us beginners need is a little bit of structured help - nothing more. And just for reference, the fact I had to fill in a form with an actual pen and hand over £15 in actual money isn’t one of the barriers..…
Thank you
You say the only reason you showed up on Sunday was because it was 'conducted'. Can I ask what stopped you going to the Butsfield training day on the Saturday? Slightly different principles, mark sections out with Colin & Micky & ride them until every cleaned them. After this a full trial occurred.
John, do you think you would get many to take part? Whenever Weardale runs a Saturday trial & has a Very easy course isn't it 95 or even 100% kids on Osets riding it?
To many people are worried about what others think of them, so could possibly stay away from doing a conducted because it's associated with kids.
Going back to what Glen was saying about trying to get people to progress, instead of the Green course for half clubman half expert. How about something for the easy course which allows them to ride half the clubman? At least that way you can build your confidence up bit by bit eventually progressing onto riding fully clubman level.
Not sure if this is something already been applied else where, but it's not in the North east.
It's interesting you can't comment on clubman or expert, we are all part of the same sport. Unless we have separate events then everyones needs have to be accommodated. So whilst the easy course is fine for you by your own admission it's too much for others and from my point of view it's limiting the scope for the other courses. The ability range therefore seems too great ?
Yeah I'd agree the ability range is huge, for you looking at the clubman & easy you probably think it looks far to easy. But for me as an easy rider looking at clubman sections & clubman riders they just look well above my ability.
One thing I will say is when I've helped one certain NE club mark out, the sections always start with the Clubman course & then the easy & expert is derived from there route. So it may not always been down to making exceptions for the easy lads.
The North East Centre may be hijacking this thread but it's a good case to look at in order to answer the original question.
Trying to set an acceptable course for the range of ability in the North East is difficult.
The easy course wasn't planned as such, it started as a white route back in the 90s so that a growing number of people who had bought twin shocks and pre65 bikes could ride a centre trial. Within a couple of years lesser riders went onto this course on modern bikes. But this course itself now has a massive range of ability.
When setting a trial, for a number of years now, we have good natural sections for middle and hard course riders that we often can't use as the easy course can't have a section there. This group are driving the location of sections for the other two or three routes. People correctly state easy course is 50% of the entry.
We now sometimes have expert sections which are made in easy course locations, not good sections and often just tight corners. I could say no thought goes into them at all but actually it's a compromise.
I genuinely didn't realise how big the ability gap was until setting out Alwinton 2 day the first year it ran. Some easy course riders only did a lap (it was three laps on day 1 the first year) as they couldn't get round the course, riding up and down the hills round alwinton was harder than their typical section.
One bloke went home having lost 8 marks in a lap of 15 sections as he said it was too hard, he was riding a cub, I still cant believe that actually happened. Someone else on the same course didn't come back for three years as he thought the easy course was a waste of time. He wanted to ride the gullies not along the bank side. This rider was in his 60s on a acm. Impossible to please everyone even with three courses.
So at one end of our ability range you have Maco asking why the easy course isn't easier still. But at its current level it's a barrier to the other routes in terms of where you can have a section and just getting round the course. And then theres the uncomfortable truth , the centres harder bigger trials get the best entries !
Yes I know some venues are too much according to some, Macos friends will go practicing instead some weeks. But at the other end we have experts doing the same thing, venues which aren't suitable for them so they practice elsewhere or ride in Yorkshire / Scotland or the lakes.
We actually have two clubs running beginners championships on weds nights and sat afternoons which is great but is this isnt enough for the easy course riders ? Wheres the series for just the middle course and expert riders to have sections specifically for them ?
The jumps between the routes need to be manageable for people wanting to progress but there is quite a gulf and this differs week to week club to club.
Some on here will know I'm Glen Quinn but for those that don't know I've been kicking round national trials finishing absolutely nowhere in terms of results for years. I'm still riding Exp in the north east centre most of the time at 49 years of age. I'm often finishing as high in North East Centre trials now as I ever have. For me the whole things gone backwards. If the sport was progressing i should be losing 30 marks, an enjoyable day out for me, on the middle course but I don't lose much more than that riding Exp in all but a couple of trials. We have another rider in his 50s riding an air cooled Yam who can ride and win an Exp course on less than 5 marks. We had one of our experts win the easy course at the Reeth 3 day recently, he lost over 50 marks. Centre to centre the variation is enormous. So I wasn't trying to boast, I'm just pointing out that our trials are no harder now for me and others in terms of marks lost than they were 20 years ago. Sections might be harder in some cases but bikes are much better. Our trials can be much easier than other centres.
Then most of our trials are 4x 10 sections. So a section that's two hard or easy is a material proportion of the day. Get two or three and people are off home. One or two lap trials nobody minds a couple of sections which don't suit them. But bigger trials need more helpers / land / observers. As a centre we can do that but it's a lot of effort.
So after all that I think the more we have tried to please the more problems we have actually created. This is the same across the country. Despite all the courses and championships theres still lots of unhappy riders and even more who have quit.
As a sport our ability range has always required different events local, regional, national etc. Our problem is that we no longer have enough riders to make it all viable. Back to new riders then......
To me the easy course is fine as it is, I can go to weardale & lose probably 30+ marks but still enjoy myself and at the other end of the scale I can go to Stanley/consett & lose less than 10 marks and be in with a chance of winning. I just understand where the learners are coming from because it's friggin hard!!
Like you said though Glen, the gap between Easy & clubman is vast. If a ranking scheme was in place would I be forced to ride clubman because I've had a good few rides on the easy course? I probably wouldn't turn up to a few certain clubs because I know there would be no chance of me doing most of the sections.
At the end of the day it's impossible to please everyone, you'll still get clubman riders on the easy course complaining it's to easy & learners complaining that it's to hard. I'm just focusing on the easy course because i can't comment on the clubman or expert courses.
Also like you said Glen, it's very much down to the clubs. Entries vary from club to club, we all know Weardale gets less than half the entries of Consett/Stanley & we also know that the latters sections are much easier. Coincidence?
Personally the main factory is section severity. I'm a bang average rider & could still be classed as a beginner.
In the NE club trials you normally have Easy, clubman & expert course but I don't know how you can call the easy course easy. I've managed to drag a few mates along to try out trials & they've all said the same thing, an easy course should be for beginners & learners who want to turn up to there first trial and get round for a finish without killing themselves & never wanting to return. Sometimes you get to a 'easy' section and theres been no thought gone into it at all.
The worse thing is you've got people riding the easy course & winning it on 0 marks then going to national trials where there's no Easy course & riding clubman level. Then coming back to a club trial marking the easy out more difficult because they don't want to ride the clubman & not win it.
Some sort of ranking needs to be in place, forcing the better riders onto the clubman so the easy can actually stay easy for people wanting to get into the sport & learn. No one wants to turn up and kill themselves, be absolutely shattered & not enjoy it when they could probably go practising for £10 or even free. Which by the way is what a lot of my mates do because of exactly what I've just said.
One other major factor is I think trials could be branded as a 'older man sport'. Youngsters would rather be on a Ktm flying around a track flat out instead of tickling a bike through a stream. I don't know how you go about conquering that one though.
Just had one of these letters through myself but I've never owned a road registered bike?
It says it's for a 2008 bike, which I know for sure I've never owned because I started on a 2009 beta & worked my way up. The letters for a Gasgas so can't be that bike.
Not heard of this over in the UK, what are the changes that make them 2018.
Am I right in thinking that the E4 isn't a 2018 bike? Isn't it just the 2017 racing that's been tweaked to meet with European emission restrictions?
I spoke to a shop in Spain & he said he had decided to not even stock any E4's until all his normal racing bikes had sold out because they where basically the same with different emissions testing.
It's unrealistic to look at most of the top riders bikes & think that riding there bike would make you a better rider.
Obviously certain bikes are suited to certain people differently. Height & weight been certain factors..
Its rumoured that Bous bike costs the other side of £250,000. Personally I can't see it, but if it's correct he's riding around on a bike worth quarter of a million to make the novice rider think a £6000 bike will make him improve. If you've ever been upclose to Toni's bike you can easily tell it's no standard 300cc engine from the RR, it's more powerful. Same probably goes for the TRS, Gasgas, Sherco & vertigo riders. The top riders for them teams will have extremely expensive bikes to tempt the public to buy them.
Not taking anything away from the skill of the guys riding them.
I'll wager that you are also one the gentlemen that always pushes in when queuing for a section.
That is also poor etiquette. Bad manners too.
You would of just lost your money, but I'd certainly make sure I always pushed in front of you if I rode a trial with you and revved the a*** off my bike.
Hopefully leading to going home crying like a girl
What a stupid complaint. If you don't want to be surrounded by 2 stroke fumes then get a different hobby.. It's not hard to move your bike slightly to one side to move away from direct contact with the fumes!
Where are all the entries????
in UK Trials Talk
Posted
I'd guess that Stanley decided to run the trial because of the distance people had to travel to get to your Sunday trial. Possibly thinking they would get good numbers.
I was away for that weekend so couldn't attend either, but with Seaton delevals trial being 70 mile from myself & Butsfield been around 15 mile I would of rode the Saturday & not the Sunday.
Stanley ran a tuition day one Wednesday night a few month back & had always planned to do more throughout the year because they got a good turn out. Around 15 of us if I remember rightly.
Like you say, more beginners trials to get people into the sport the better.