I would like from the T & E to echo the thanks Pitley has mentioned as far as Normandale are concerned.
For 2009 I am going to try to always refer to this series as the Normandale Traditional - and I have asked press to give more mention of title - perhaps we can all try to do same?
Please do not too carried away with this - especially on the subject of time in a section.
Those who are afraid that a rider can take the pi.. and stay in a section all day , are ignoring the fact that for years and years , once a rider had a 1 - which is quite likely for most of us - they could still have sat there all day for no further penalty? It did not happen.
Personally, while I realise that most organisers will not bother to introduce a time limit on a section , I think that eventually they will.
I observe in our British Champ each year - and I regard myself as an old fart with poor eyesight and little patience, and certainly not as good as most observers out there.
I can honestly state however that pressing a button on an automatic clock at the same time as I blow a plastic whistle as I see the rider enter the section has not been that great a challenge. Equally - I take no notice of the clock until a hear the buzzer sound - and if rider is still in section - he gets a five. It really is not a problem.
For British Champ the time is 1 min 30sec - and it does take a few seconds to reset clock - but if you use 1 minute - which is quite sufficient for normal trials - the reset is simplicity itself - i.e press a button.
So - what I say - is keep an open mind - I think you may be surprised how some Observers find the rules far less taxing ( no judgement needed about a pause and so on )
My Centre and Club are not going to initially time sections - but I hope to run one trial later in the year and use the clocks just to show how simple it really is.
Yes - as others have said you need to be fairly carefull in finding which model you use - and do not get too hung up on engine numbers etc - as many seem to be doing with all things Bultaco - as over the years one hell of a lot of Bultaco's have been modified, had different gear clusters fiitted, cranks and top ends etc - I know becuase I have done probably hundreds.
The 250 Alpina sometimes found in UK - is often one of a batch that came in - and Sammy Miller had quite a lot to do with them - and sold quite a few.( I think he also turned a few back into normal Sheropa's)
To all extent and purpose they looked very similar to the blue 75 Sherpa shown on the front of the Bultaco haynes manual. The tank was larger and there were SOME differences in gear ratio's - but not as great as all that.
Many of us at time thought of them as a sort of cross betweem trials and trail - and some of us - at least m- thought they make a basis for an Enduro bike ( I thought wrong).
I bought one - and with a few mods rode it in Welsh Two days and a few British Champ Enduro's - but it was very much based on the trials bike than anything else - so excellent in mud/section type parts - but too slow and rather scary when flat out along the tracks - oh - and I stood up for two days!
If you have this one - it is easy to use as a trials 0 change the ratios if you wish - I have loads of suitable gears both new and s/hand - although if you just play with sprox a little you will find you can use 1st & 2nd as is . A slimmer tank seat unit will be better as well.
The " proper" Alpina - more common to Spain etc is a different beat - and probably left as it is as it will be worth more money in original state
There is some financial support for selected ACU U23 riders in the European Championships which we see as a stepping stone to the WC in both Trials & Enduro. Mick Wren co-ordinates the Trials and I do same for Enduro. It is rather easier for me - as there are only 4 UEM Championship Enduro events - Mick has more events and also Women classes - and obviously this dilutes the money - but it should be noted that there is some assistance - and it is a start.
A few years ago the young riders got sod all - now they get a little help - it is always a balancing act - as it is money out of the pot that all other riders have contributed too - so it needs to be realistic and sensible - but it is a start
I think Sunt makes some very valid points and of course he has been there riding them.
I think it has to be accepted that the few top riders aiming to make it at Euro and WC will still need and wish to ride these hard BC sections - but as I have said - it should not be necessary to make all the sections like this - and I also agree with the scenario that watching our top riders fail section after section does nothing for any argument.
So - for sure we will be looking at a reduction in severity in some of these 12 sections - but as someone else has mentioned - making sure it happens is the difficult bit - and that I suppose will be down to us.
I have to admit - far to often I think we all use the excuse that the rain/ bad weather made things more difficult than intended- it is time we all accepted that in UK there is a damm good chance of rain - and we need to err on the side of caution. If we then start to get numerous complaints thatb the sections were to easy ( which I doubt) we can deal with it.
It may be that we will have to take the bull by the horns and determine some exact criteria - and stick with it - and events that do not met the set down criteria will have to relinqish a round. Hard to do - and certainly not popular - but this may be the only option. All this will be discussed with Organisers
On subject of practice - this always brings lots of comments - and in every Brit Champ meeting we discuss it - and will again. I must say however that it should not be thought that it is just for the benefit or riders - it is not - although I would take a lot of convincing that they would get on with job in early sections if there had been no practice. The fact remains - especially in venues where the Club has no top riders to call on /advice - that the practice session allows changes to be made. I think I have probably been to more BC rounds than most - and certainly on most occasions the C/Course has used the practice sessiobn to determine a few changes - and often ease sections which he had marked on the ambitious side. There are always pro's and con's on this matter - and it will be discussed.
As I have said in last post - our emphasis will also very much be in making the Experts - and I use example of Expert A and Expert B classes which will accomodate the level of riders who are in them.
It has already been said that there are some very good past Championship riders - who now find they have to take time and work into account - and the demands of constant practice ( needing a minder for practice as well) - are just too great. Therefore we wish to investigate the possibility of catering for this group of riders - and I think there could be quite a few - with sections suitable for their ability.
However - we do not wish to deter those good - but lower order Expert riders - and it is here that we wish to make a new class - which I have called Expert B for now.
In summary - the suggestion is to try - with 3 classes ( and of course the top youth) to cater for
Championship - The small number of World and European runners and those who aspire to do so
Experts - The ex Championship riders - and those on way up to Champ level in future - and despite what people say - there are always some.
Expert B - The lower order Experts - and those who wish to try British Champ - but do not need to be thrown in at the deep end or have to ride sections which are way above their capability
The British Champ meeting is on November 22nd. All potential organisers have been invited ( I say potential - for of course calendar is not formed yet)
Championship riders and top xxxx placed Expert riders have been invited.
Press have been invited. Importers have been invited.
The comments made on TC have been noted by Mick Wren, myself and other mebers of the T & E and we will take it all into account - and hopefully arrive a few changes to improve the BC
It is till the end of the calender year in which he reaches 17. Obviously with something like this we are looking at the extreme ends of situation - but it can of course happen.
If -the older ones amongst us actually think back to early school days - there always seemed to be someone in your class who had just scraped under some sort of age criteria and was always that much bigger etc - and always picked for the school Rugby team - and at other end of scenario - there would be somene who because of the age criteria just had to move up a class when all his friends etc stayed in a differnt one?
The replies being given are spot on ( must be more people reading this book than ever before!!)
I confirm what has already been said
Under 16 - A rider is Youth - and must ride the appropriate capacity machine - so 15 yr old will be on 125 etc
Over 16 - A rider can choose to ride as a Youth ( until 17th birthday) OR an Adult - till he's my age ( then he should know better!) - no really until any age
So between 16 and 17 he can actually choose - and can fluctuate back and forth if he wishes.
BUT - When he rides as a Youth - he must ride correct capacity for Youth - 125 in example given
When he rides as an Adult - he can ride adult capacity machines ie anything
Parental Agreement: I did look into this within a few days after an email from Bikespace - but rather foolishly sent my reply via a return to site email which I always cock up and have no way of knowing if they ever get there. I should have just posted on site - so I will now
The answer to the Parental Agreement and who must accompany a Youth to an event etc is all given ACU Licence/Registration form. ( page 6)
I will not copy it all out for you - but to summarise-
In each case the Parent/Legal Guardian will have signed tghe form to consent to the Minor taking part in motorcycle sport.
Then it states
Under 14 - Parent/legal Guardian must always be present when they compete
Aged 14 or 15 - A responsible adult ( who need not be parent/guardian) must be present when the youth competes.
Aged 16 or Over - There is no requirement for the minor to be accompanied
Have not been very much involved in all this - as am on way back from TDN in Andorra and at present seem to be stuck on a broken boat in Le Havre - with Beta somewhere in depths of hold.
First - I think the best I can do from T & E point of view is state:
Mick Wren is a valued and hard working member of the T & E Commitee - and I personally guarantee he has 100% support from the ALL the present memebers.
There is certainly no plot, requirement, attempt, desire or inclination within the ACU to see Mick Wren not be a meber of T & E - and I give 100% certainity on that.
It is outside the remit of ANY Committee to be involved in the votes, election procedures, etc etc etc - This is all done by National Council - which consists of delegates form each of our Centres - and through our Clubs we all have access to these delegates.
It is all very well me - or anyone else giving chapter or verse on all this - but I am not a voting delegate - neither is any memeber of T & E - it is not allowed.
Unfortunately - rightly or wrongly Mick's name is not on the list of candidates your Centre will have received to vote for.
It is true that other potential candidates for T &E did not get papework in on time - so Mick is not alone.
One thing I do think we have to be very careful over - is the views of the other candidates - and while I have only glanced at some comments on this site and paper - I do wonder if anyone has given them the courtesy of asking their view?
If the other candiades who did get names in - including two existing memebers of T & E feel the situation for any reason has been flawed, not satisfactory or in any way as good as it should be - the situation can actually be easily rectified - they all all able to withdraw from the election - no candidate would be elected - and there would be a re-election
In about March - when all those - including those already in , those who did not get forms in. those who wished they had put forms in - and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all - could all go back into one big melting pot - and highest three scores are duly elected?
Might be a possibility - but could never even be considered unless those already on the list feel this would be fair? I really have no idea - it is up to them to decide - but obviously it would have to be 100% or nothing - and no way could the two existing members leave their names in the hat - it would be all or nothing - and only they could decide if this was fair and equitable - obviously taking into account all they have seen and read about it all
Answer was actually on Licence/Trials registration form all along!
I have asked that it be included in Handbook for next year.
Reads: ( better if you read actual form)
Parental Agreement in respect of Minors under the age of 18.
Under 14 -
I consent to minor competing in motorcycle sport
Parent ( or Legal Guardian) must be present when the minor competes.
Aged 14 to 15
I consent to minor competing in motorcycle sport
I understand that whenever the minor competes a responsible adult ( who need not be his/her Parent or Guardian) must be present. In respect of events which I am unable to attend, I agree that the responsible adult who attends with the minor has my authority to sign competitor documentation on behalf of the minor.
Aged 16 and Over
I consent to the minor competing in Motorycle sport
I understand there is no requirement for the minor to be accompanied to events by an adult. I authorise the minor to sign documentation on his/her own behalf
ALL THIS IS FOLLOWED BY A PARA WHICH IS A DECLARATION THE PARENT HAS TO SIGN - AND WE ALL TEND TO CALL THIS THE ANNUAL PARENTAL AGREEMENT
Note - For R/Race, Drag, Sprint & Hillclimb - the Parent MUST be present for minors( U 18) at all events.
So - To sum up -
U14 - Parent must be there
14 -15 - Provided the Annual Declaration has been signed - a responsible adult can be nominated.
Over 16 - Provided a Parental Declaration is aready in place - rider does not have to be accompanied.
I was determined not to get involved in this - but it is quite interesting - so I have succumbed.
As Dan Williams and a few others have said - and BDMC certainly knows - bad situation with no real winners - but that's life.
Only solution in my opinion is to scrub section.
Obviously not good from other riders who have done nowt wrong - but C/Course I do not think has much choice.
The C/Course has ultimate responsibility - and in this case the Observer has ( for whatever reason) been unable to complete the job the C/Course assumed he would do.
Of course other riders have lost a section - not fair to someone who had a brilliant ride - and cleaned it both times - but - as the rider concerned was not marked - and this was confirmed by Observer - and also confirmed that he did not miss it etc through his own fault - what he actually scored may be open to debate/argument. The fact that he was not punched - after riding it - is not open to, debate - and so the section - for him is null and void.
If we take an easier example - ( not so controversial) If half way through first lap an Observer feels faint - or is taken ill - or is chased off by a bull - or captured by aliens - those arriving after this - finding no-one there - will after a while just miss it and go to next one? Not fair to penalise them - so section must be scrubbed. Not fair to those who rode before - and specially those who cleaned it (one might have been having ride of his life!) - But the fact is the section cannot be
a) Firstly - Mike has raised a fairly valid point - and one which we are very aware of - not least because it affects our own Clubs apart form our position on any C/tee.
Unfortunately - Mike is only looking at part of the situation - obviously the part he is aware of - but I am afraid it is a bit more complicated than he implied
Mick Wren has answered some of this
The situation - and we have discussed all this before of Italian/French super trucks at WC events etc
c) The appearance/razz mataz - or lack of it at BC rounds.
I find it difficult to link the three - or certainly (a) to the others - which of course was the topic of the post. I am quite prepared to offer some thoughts - but in no way can this be done in a few lines - or even a page - the Stewards situation alone needs a fair amount of explanation especially as it is fairly apparent that their exact role is not all that clear.
If TC readers (is that correct word?) Wish me to try to explain - I will do so - if not I will leave it to your own deliberations
I accept that there will always be reasons why people cannot attend such a seminar - and we will just have to live with that - but I am afraid many of the reasons are not that valid:
Date - OK - it may clash with the French World round - and that would effect a few - but I emphasise a few. We have to be realistic and assess actually how many this applied to - my bet is very few indeed.
I would ask those who found the date a big disadvantage to look at a calendar and suggest an actual better date - bearing in mind as Mick has stated that we accepted past criticism that if it is held later in year nothing is more annoying than being told - " cannot alter things now - too late for next year/handbook etc" - so we choose a time when things can actually be done.
Venue: Yes Rugby is the HQ - but it is also at the HQ where our secretaries are based - it is important for them to be at the Forum we believe - as they deal with you all on the day to day basis etc ,. There is a reason that ACU HQ is in Rugby - and that is basically a geographical one - and it is a fairly central location. It should in theory mean that it is accessible to North, S, E and West. The idea of Forum in Scotland or somewhere may be all right for those who are actually riding up there - not a lot of use for riders who are not there - or certainly organisers from other parts of UK. I also ponder how long it would take for severe criticism of C/tee members from say Wales , Devon and South travelling that distance - and without them listening - even to constructive criticism - makes the whole thing a waste of time. Further to this - people have already mentioned Youth Observing rules - surely this debate should never be limited to those who happen to be in a certain place for a certain event - and do not ride or organise Youth events?
Fortunately our sport is spread across the whole of the UK - and therefore it seems logical to hold it at the HQ - any other location will surely attract more problems for more people?
Agenda: Sorry - cannot accept that if the agenda was published earlier more would go - what do we think was going to be discussed ? Football? The invitations to all Forums - except BC have always invited anyone to submit items for discussion - and some did ( thanks to those who made effort). The points I listed are the usual topics that come up for discussion in any agenda - in any club discussion and in any pub discussion - they are the items that concern us all ( as well as others) and will - and always have been on the table -year after year.
Notice of Forum: Again - I think there was plenty of notice. It certainly featured in TC . It appeared in TMX - more than once. It appeared on ACU Web site for weeks. It even appeared on the Enduro news Web site.
It was also advertised in the ACU mag - which every rider and Club secretary gets. Notice was also sent out to every Centre - and from them presumably the Clubs would also have received notice - I know ours certainly did.
Again sorry - but while in the past there may not have been enough communication - I think the above was a fair amount.
At end of the day - for second year running it has been cancelled - there were 8 confirmed attendee's - and these were basically from 3 - 4 organisations.
It is not the end of the World - at least we gave the opportunity - and I confirm what Mick has already said - each of the items mentioned will certainly get further thought - but obviously that will now be limited to C/tee members - which is not ideal. I also echo Mick's point that at any time - feel free to approach a C/tee member at an event and bend his ear - we have no problem with that - but I admit that it is a little frustrating when we try to move things forward and take a wider viewpoint on board ( something that certainly has not always happened in past ) there is a lack of support.
Finally finally - I really just hope that in general - but obviously with the normal tweaking and alterations - it is like Bikespace states - most people are fairly happy - and apart from the odd moan just wish to get on with riding thier bikes.
Alison - our T & E Sec will be in touch with all those who stated they would attend and will also of course post notice on ACU Web site and TC.
But to save time and more effort and to give those who were making the effort to attend a chance to do other things I confirm that a decision was taken about 10 mines ago that the Trials Forum was cancelled due to lack of support - again.
We are particularly disappointed for the few who were supportive of it - and we intend to open up some written dialogue back and forth with them so that the issues they were keen to discuss will not be passed over. We will make every effort to work with them on the issues they wish to raise.
Someone asked what was on the agenda - basic answer : anything to do with trials - although as someone else stated the BC has its own forum later.
Certainly those who were going to attend had asked for the following to be placed on agenda and it was:
Risk Assessments, Traditional Trials Championship, Novogar, Youth Championships
Trials section marking , and a few more topics.
Already on agenda by T & E was :
Trials Observing rules for 2009 - Youth & Adult - Especially FIM Observing rules
In line with all the previous posts I would like to add my thnaks to Javier and Carlos for the tremendous welcome they gave all the British riders at Robregordo.
It was also a pleasure to forget about ACU matters and just get back on a bike and enjoy a super trial - and it was an equal pleasure to be at event with such a great a bunch of British riders and their partners - it has restored my enthusiasm quite a lot.
For those twin shock riders who thought about entering but never did ( I was nearly one of them) - start saving and planning now ready for next year - it really is worth it - and is something you will look back on and say " I was there"
Chewy - I have replied at great length to this before - it must be on the site somewhere. I am afraid you are over simplifying the problem - and need to read the past words in detail.
Trying to sort it pretty dam quick is not an option I am afraid - it has taken about 3 years and lots of work to date - and no real solution has been found. In my last post I think I pointed out some obvious problems - especially the fact that looking at the numbers involved taking out the One event RTA insurance - it is one hell of a job trying to convince an Insurance company that there is any market for such a policy. We might believe there is - but as I have said before - if a road based trials has 100 entries - and 4 One event insurances are taken out on the day - the logical conclusion for an insurance man is that 96 people already have cover?
Step 1 - When trying to persuade an Insurance company to look at the issue - How many riders are likely to take it up? No good saying loads - or all my mates - we need specifics - and it is not easy to asses as we think
Step 2 - the Insurance Company always always wish to know when their Insurance would kick in - or kick out - we used to say - as soon as the rider left the road or highway - simple - no longer the case I am afraid.
The insurance companies are able to assess the situation about bikes on the road - but when they start looking at Public places, Rights of Way, Boats, Rupps and so on - they start to get very cold feet indeed.
If as customers - Insurance companies decline to offer cover while in any competitive event - that is their prerogative - there is not a lot for the ACU to sort out - sure we can explain what trials are all about - been done on numerous occasions - sure we can show them a trials bike - been done (not sure if that was such a good move) Sure we can point out that statistics show that there has been very little claim culture etc - been done - and so on.
We must keep trying - and hopefully someone one day will take up the challenge - but it ain't happened yet for numerous reasons - but I assure you it is not for the want of trying - and I do not wish to claim brownie points for this as it has been others who have spent lots of time/ efforts and meetings - but so far to no avail.
As I said in my last post on the subject - there are dozens of Insurance Brokers who advertise all sorts of Insurance - but they are just that - Brokers. They often claim they will offer an annual policy - and off we go down the road again trying to provide statistics and estimates etc - but then it is the same old story - these brokers do not " write" insurance - they are only brokers - and there are not as many actual, Insurance companies who write motorcycle insurance as you think- and so when the broker finally decided it has been a wasted voyage - we start all over again - and so it goes on.
The stator plate and coils will fit straight onto your 250 and are identical.
The flywheel on the 350 however is much heavier - but will fit - give you more low down torque - but you will loose a little response - if you can - use the 250 flywheel it will be better - but you can get away with 350 one if you have to.
I did make some enquiries about this - and I am informed that the Trials feature is set for some time in the future - possibly with other motorcycle events shown at same time.
The situation - and we have discussed all this before of Italian/French super trucks at WC events etc
Traditional Trials Champs
in UK Trials Talk
Posted
I would like from the T & E to echo the thanks Pitley has mentioned as far as Normandale are concerned.
For 2009 I am going to try to always refer to this series as the Normandale Traditional - and I have asked press to give more mention of title - perhaps we can all try to do same?