Toby is wasted doing another year of Trial2. He should be in the TrialGP class where he would be plenty good enough and would gain the experience at the higher level
That’s an interesting proposal. So you’re suggesting 1 mark for a feet-up stop, and 5 for a foot-down stop? It seems quite a good idea to me but you’re still left trying to differentiate marginal movement from a momentary stop.
This rule came in in 1998. A feet up stop was 1 mark, stop and 1 foot down 2, stop and 2 feet down was a 3. You couldn't move the bike in any direction unless you were moving forward. It worked well but observers became more lenient largely due to the severity of sections changing. It worked well for years until the Spanish decided they didn't like it anymore. It was however a good solution rather than full blown no-stop and far easier for the riders to accept a 1 for stopping as opposed to getting a 5.
Our club made the decision this year to put the entry fees up slightly from £15 (which it has been for a long,long time) to £18. We pay the observers £20 each and give them a meal voucher for the burger van. If a rider brings an observer they get a free ride. I couldn't say it has improved things as there is much more to it than that with there being dates clashes, regular observers on holiday etc. I have no idea what the cure is but I would imagine riding round in small groups would take forever as this is generally what a lot do in club trials with no observers.
I agree with you. Some weeks ago, I watched the GP in Zelhem. After the GP all three riders on the podium reported independently that it was a "very easy" competition. During qualification and later in the competition I saw each of them also frequently talking to Jordi Tarres as well as to Jordi Pascuet. So I think that the top riders and the organisers agree that the organisation of the events, the performance of the bikes and the level of difficulty of the sections are exactly what they want. On the other hand side, as a Clubman rider, I don't claim to ever be able to ride the same sections as the top 10.
I watched the highlights of the round from Zelhem and the top 3 did all say it was easy. I bet they wouldn't have said that if they got scored correctly as barely anybody would get through anything.
Trials has certainly lost its way as quoted in one of the other posts. I don't think that doing a bit of trick riding (hopping the back wheel etc) is a problem as that has been done since the early 80's, I think that the dangerous circus style acrobatics in which somebody will get seriously injured is not trials. Maybe it will take somebody to hurt themselves fro something to be done, I don't know.
I was watching a video on youtube from the early 90's and there are minders but not really for catching, it is more for lining up etc. Removing them from world championships would probably make the job even more dangerous as it will be purely down to who has the biggest cahonas.
The bikes are better than any of us will ever be but holding back the development isn't the key as that will just put the factories out of business eventually.
Apologies i checked his palmares and it didnt mention the one win.
There are lots of reasons why young lads are not challenging now, im not sure Tarres would or wouldnt have lasted longer now but again its hypothetical, different times different riders. regardless i accept you agreeing he wasnt/is the most professional which was your point?
Think somebody else made the quote about him being the most professional. He definitely changed the sport and was the sponsors dream being draped in sponsors logos etc. I agree with you that it is all completely hypothetical and there is no way you could drag somebody from the 60's etc into modern times and they ride against Bou etc. I personally think that riders are much better now than they used to be in years gone by as techniques are more refined and it is irrelevant to the bike as Bou etc would do far harder stuff on a standard Bultaco than what Vesty, Mart etc were doing in their heyday.
I would not describe tarres as an animal much more an artist with a type of symbiotic relationship with his bike. Certainly no more professional than dougie, colomer,raga or even going back Don smith sammy or vesty.
tarres never won the ssdt, dougie and bou won more titles, and didnt ride competitively into his 40's as doug has, dont think hes done the scott either so im sure youre wrong there.
But as illustrated above times change and unless you have a machine to transport jordi here or bou back then Sammy to 2019, Graham Jarvis to not injure his knee the year he couldve done well in the wtc its guess work and hypothesis on your favourite??
so Jordi didn't win the SSDT in 1987 then? When he retired he was much younger than a lot of the top lads are now as they all keep going as nobody is coming through to challenge them
any evidence to support this as im sure the overall figures are down, just look at clubs that no longer exsist etc. Nice to know acu figures that would give us some idea as to the trend?
Yes I agree there are clubs folding but that is nothing to do with lack of entries. That is down to a lack of people actually putting anything back into the job and helping to organise the events. The majority of the organisers are in advanced years of age and they cannot keep going. The ACU did publish something earlier this year saying how many ACU trials licence's were issued but I can't find it for the life of me. I'm sure they would gladly provide the information.
The problem with trials and where it differs to other sports is that the course set out in the world rounds is only achievable by the very top few. The Usain Bolt example is good because isn't expected to run 120 metres, he still runs the same course as the others but is or was quicker than everybody else. This is the problem that our sport is subjective to so many different things as there are different rules, different bikes, different observers etc. Football (which I'm not a fan of) at least has one set of rules and they play for 90 minutes and it has the same scoring system worldwide for everybody to understand. Motocross or road racing is dead simple too as whoever crosses the line first wins. Trials isn't like that as we have 2 sets of rules + the gate trial system they use in certain events and the rules are allowed to be abused. Limiting the development of the bikes is not the answer in my opinion as the modern bikes are great.
I watched the video from the Belgian world round last night and you could easily be fooled to think the rules had changed back to stop permitted. It is an embarrassment. The course setters need to be held responsible and the observers should just give everybody a 5 rather than letting them all off so it becomes acceptable
What facts do you have to say entries are up at grass roots?
I can only speak from being a club secretary and organising events that the entries are well up and there are lots more people applying for a licence than before. The ACU published some figures that the number of people holding a licence was up on previous years. (can't remember the exact figures).
Maybe we need an observer's boycott for behaviour such as above.
I think some observers unfortunately would have backed down to the offenders but we didn't. We all agreed that it was an embarrassment to the sport and it should have led to a ban. We did get abused by quite a few riders but this was the worst instance. I have seen riders pressurising observers in club trials etc and it really is not on. No wonder there is a shortage of observers.
5 seconds is a momentarily stop, a well defined one! which was my point.
I chose this value as it is easier to manage than 2 seconds but short enough to keep things generally moving. I don't claim it is a solution, just a compromise which might be an option.
If you are going to allow stopping but are concerned about riders taking an age to complete a section then you need to implement some sort of time limit for a stop, to keep things consistent.
Maybe a time limit for the section as done so in the indoor is the best option??
No stop is definitely nonsensical at this level and maybe national level and above.
Show me an observer who is willing to strictly follow the "no stop" rule to the letter in a major event and i'll show you a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are going to allow stop with no restriction the riders will just spend ages lining up and messing around wasting time and making it very boring to watch. The riders will bend and exploit the rules as much as they can, why not if it gives them an edge?
Honestly, I don't see a total win win solution, the modern style of bikes and riding are just not suited to strictly no stop. For example, I can flip turn my bike in such away that both wheels are not turning at all yet the bike is slightly moving forward but it looks like i'm stationary & vise versa. What would the observer award me? I suspect I'd get a mix of decisions which I would have to accept. The top guys can do this type of trick riding far better than I could ever dream of doing, some of which strictly could be deemed a stop, but they manoeuvre the bike in such a way that it looks like its not stopped & vise versa. And again when faced with a huge step they often pre-load the bikes' suspension with a very slight pause before exploding into the step, or they sump out on the step pause very quickly as they heave the bike over. Who is going to 5 them for this pause?
The time limit per section was introduced in 1994 and was 3 minutes per section and people thought that was tight. Then it gradually reduced and even ended up at 1 minute per section which was really dangerous as the sections were not set at the correct length. The 90 second time limit is spot on if a time limit is to be applied (which in my opinion is necessary at top level) but at club level it works fine without. Riders soon get moaned at by other riders in the queue if they are taking an age to ride the section.
I have observed at world rounds and enforced the rules consistently and fairly (the key word for all observing is consistent) and guess what - we got a complete barrage of abuse for sticking to the rules. One of the team even got a helmet thrown at him by one of the minders and a complete barrage of swearing - good old family sport eh! There is a huge difference between a momentary pause and a definite stop and the riders at the top level have pushed it for years. Trouble is that it appears to be the FIM who are not changing the rules for some reason which I don't understand. I'm sure the official quotes were that it would be more affordable and increase entries! yeah right! At grass roots level, how do you explain to a newcomer that you don't actually know what you will get scored as this observer will let you off but that one won't. It is laughable really and it just needs simplifying somehow.
Personally after watching the latest couple of rounds I don't see how they can observe world rounds as true "no stop" trials. In fact I don't see how you can run most modern trials strictly no stop unless you set "traditional sections" such as long straight, wide turn routes where keeping both wheels on the ground and turning is the advantage. The world round sections are predominantly still tight turns up big steps, with the odd bank side to climb! No observer is going to 5 a rider for a momentarily stop on such severe sections, especially the likes of Bou & co. From what I have seen the riders know this and as usual exploit the fact! As bad as the observation on the particular section in question on this thread was, I saw plenty of riders get away with what should have clearly been 5's.
Bou brought the modern style of riding to the world and now all the kids are copying it. They will also copy their hero's antics and expect not to be 5'ved for a quick stop in a no stop section. And to be fair would you have the heart to 5 someone for a split second pause after they had a great ride through a tough section?
I just don't see the point of running no stop, its difficult to observe and remain consistent. If no stop rules are to be used then the sections should reflect this and be achievable without any split second pause/stop similar to those in the 6 day or other similar national events. But, lets face it modern bikes are essentially designed to be trick ridden and the majority of riders enjoy doing or attempting a bit themselves all of us enjoy a good mixture of terrain and types of sections. This includes sections which require the trick riding, at least to some degree, so making all trials no stop limits the types of sections and limits the full potential of the machines.
I personally would allow momentarily stop with no reversing, the stop being only a few seconds maybe 3 - 5 seconds where the observer can comfortably count before denouncing a 5. At the world rounds each observer could be given a counter with alarms, they press the button once the rider stops then an alert sounds after a preset time which indicates a fail, unless the observer presses once the rider sets off again within the preset time. It could even have a count down alert so everyone can hear, including the rider so there is no discrepancy.This system would not be 100% and sure would have its problems but at least there would be some consistency and less easy for riders to exploit and more encouraging for the lesser rider who wants a fair attempt!
5 seconds isn't a momentary stop! This is why it is all wrong. No stop is no stop, not stop for a few seconds then a few more on the next section etc. The top riders need to be able to stop as the sport has evolved from what it used to be. The SSDT observing is very lenient now compared to what it used to be but who can criticise them as they are volunteers. .
Interestingly, Moto GP and Formula 1 both have restrictions on tyres so if it's good enough for them then surely it is good enough for a small sport like trials. It will never ever appeal to the masses so this rubbish about making it spectator friendly etc is a wasted exercise. Entries at grass roots level are up massively but absolutely none of those riders have watched a world round video from recent years and thought "I fancy chucking myself at a 12ft rock step with nowhere to fall off and the minder probably wont be able to reach to catch me anyway". There are some super videos from the 90's on youtube on the Trialsport video channel. Yes it is extremely difficult what they are doing but isn't actually a world apart from some stuff in a national trial nowadays which just shows how ridiculous the job has become. There is a reason the Kia championships and twinshock type trials are so popular as they are appealing for the masses to ride.
This isn't just a problem at the world championship level, it is filtering down into national and sometimes club trials too. The S3 championship which used to be the CLUBMAN championship now caters for around 20 riders if you are lucky on the hard route and around 100 on the easy route. Those figures say it all. The severity on the hard route is sometimes ridiculous and it is fairly standard to stand and catch for each other. This is very very good riders standing catching for each other I might add - what the hell is that about???
The world championship has major severity issues and has been that way for years now which has a major impact on how the sections are observed (not going into that though) and they are dangerous. Would it be less severe if it was stop permitted? I don't know the answer to that but I would definitely say it was more predictable and less chance of a major accident as the minders have time to get into position and the riders are not having to throw themselves at stuff when they are not lined up.
I watched the 26 minute video from the Netherlands and it looks a superbly organised event, lots of spectators and a good atmosphere. The sections are all man made which is no problem for a one off but the observing is completely diabolical. I have observed at world level a few times and you just have to stand firm as the riders know when they can take the mickey. The sections look like they are not set for no stop (obviously to try and take marks) but this is the complete opposite of what should happen. The sections should require perfect precision and a reward is given for a clean ride, not going in and hopping, stopping and pushing the observer into no-mans land where they just find it easier to let everybody stop so they have a day of minimal aggravation. Is it just trials that its acceptable to not stick to the clear rules? You don't see a golfer hit the ball down the fairway and then they don't like where it has landed so pick it up and drop it where it suits them for their next shot. Something must change as there will be a major accident either indoors or outdoors and then there will be a full inquest. The clerk of the course is then in the firing line and most of the time they haven't even put a flag in the ground at this level yet have to take the responsibility on. Not fair if you ask me.
The GP model has all the good bits on like Renthal bars, S3 footrests, S3 cylinder head, Carbon airbox but is very much the same as the racing otherwise. The main issue you will have is actually getting hold of one as there are only a few Racing's left at very few dealers and no more are coming. The GP's arrived late last week but as it is a limited edition there won't be loads available.
The 18 and 19 bikes both have 10/39 gearing as standard. The reason given was that the chain goes round more linear than having 42t on the back and this has been developed by the factory riders who are running the 10/39 gearing. I altered mine to 10/42 so I could ride in 2nd and 3rd but I'm now on 11/42 on my 19 bike so I can ride in 1st and it is very good. It is very similar to a Beta 2nd gear though and is only a fraction lower. Unfortunately as has been stated, it is expensive to alter and requires a new chain and rear sprocket.
Spanish rumours
in World Championship Chat
Posted
Toby is wasted doing another year of Trial2. He should be in the TrialGP class where he would be plenty good enough and would gain the experience at the higher level