swooshdave Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Hi Dave Its ok I have a cunning plan , am going to enter the next meeting and at the start [when the bike wont start] ask for assistance from as many Bultaco riders there lol ........ hopefully by the end of the event I'll have a working machine As for posting a pic , lovely idea but there really is'nt much to post .... just done the "check the spark in the dark" test & confirmed my previous post ... Ta Greg Actually more than you would think. For example there is a ton of info just from this picture. How it's wired. What kind of coil is being used, etc... So, before you chuck the bike in the bin, try a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Yes I agree a picture would help - as I am starting to wonder what you have got there. How do I post a pic here or would it be easier to send it direct to you John , message me if this is ok ! When you did as I asked last time - ie remove all wires and connect to tester/bulb& battery - did the light go out ( or needle swing) when you turned flywheel and the points opened? - I mean completely out ? OK here goes , just done the points break test you asked for using both methods , meter & bulb , here are my findings :- All Wires OFF , thats Black , Red & Green ...there are NO further wires and no connecting blocks , its straight from the stator / mag ! Black wire Starting from way before TDC , bulb is ON until the points open at 2.5mm BTDC , bulb goes ok, bulb continues to stay off for some further 100+ degrees of crank rotation , then bulb comes back on and stays on , all way round till 2.5mm BTDC is reached again and goes out & we start a new ignition cycle , crank is being rotated in same direction as kick-start would rotate it ie: anti-clockwise locking at Mag ! Red wire Has bulb lite ALL the time or continutety meter beeping ALL the time ! Green wire Behaves in exactly the same way as Black , with a definate Off / On depending on points position ! Checked points again and gap is at best 15 thou ! Reconnected everything as per Bultaco colours and back into darkeness , with the Black wire to HT produced a tiny orangey / bit of blue spark [old champion plug] and did not like my brand new NGK plug at all, no spark ! So question is , is it the new LT coil not giving enough juice to the HT to produce a fat spark , the new condensor for the same reason [wrong value] or original HT coil ..just not delivering the goods , although I'm "out" on the HT as writely or wrongly connecting the red wire produces a fat spark on both plugs ... i now know why it gave a spark [like the points opening] that was the Mag coming to a hault when the kick-start max'ed out ....so can deduce one thing ...connecting the RED wire was defientely wrong thing to do and the fact it gave a spark was very miss-leading ..well to me it was . Quick question , I swopped over the original plug cap for an old NGK one from a sportsbike ... are all plug caps the same or do some have an in-built resistor which could be robbing some of the juice to the plug ? Also - you have changed LT coil - where did you get this ? The wire colours you quoted originally were same as Bultaco genuine ie Black, Red, Green and Red , Would not want to flame any supplier here and they are as confused as the rest of us and trying to help ! If you have used a re- wound coil however these may be different - although most re-wound coils I have seen have not used the same windings as genuine eg have missed out the brake light part. If you have a rewound LT coil - we may have to go back to step1! Nope , am happy the colours are now right ! Connections inside flywheel for genuine coil are - black going to points and to condenser - and up to HT coil. Green - from LT coil - up to ground. Red - going nowhere Will have to check this when I take the Mag off ... which it looks like am having to do for the umpteenth time ! Well thats it John .... whats the verdict ? .... so hope I've checked it the right way lol All best Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 The capacotor is usually in the ignition is this the only one on the bike? Wouldn't trust that tape on the coil either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 The capacotor is usually in the ignition is this the only one on the bike?Wouldn't trust that tape on the coil either. The picture posted was mine (not the original posters) as an example how a picture is the best way to describe the situation. As you clearly demonstrate, I am correct. You have found a couple possible issues simply by looking at a picture. A desired option is to move the capacitor to under the tank. Better cooling and easier to change. The ignition system doesn't care where it's at. If I recall the tape (it's self-sealing tape) on the coil is more for weather-proofing than wire retention. And no, it's not ideal, but I haven't had any problems there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) (IMG: http://www.flickr.com/photos/36108545@N00/1741665145/ Original Stator II) Hope this works ! Greg Edited October 25, 2007 by gregr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2061/174166...bd738d0.jpg?v=0 Edited October 25, 2007 by gregr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Mmmm not sure why the first has a different URL but hey , thats what I had & thats what I have now ! Dave , am confused [easy i know] but why have you moved the condensor ? ..surely the shorter the wiring the better ? Cheers Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 http://www.flickr.com/photos/36108545@N00/1748204776/ new lt but suspect II http://www.flickr.com/photos/36108545@N00/1748204760/ new lt but suspect Ok had enough today , replacement coil had the final test , all wires off , bared back , do they spark on head ? ..well two did unfortunately NOT the one I wanted too , Black is out ..... so LT is back off ....going back to the suppliers , who still have my old one and will get that re-wound or maybe go down the "electric ignition" route with the kit from Dave R ... I just dont think I can go threw all this hassle again ! To John , Dave and others that have rattled their brains over this one , I really do appreciate it and hope to report soon that alls well and am dabbing away like billy-oh in the sections ! All best Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) Flicker is not very friendly. Took a little bit to get the images to show up here. I'd still like to see an overall picture of how the rest of the wiring is set up, similar to the picture I posted above. With any old thing, parts can break. And to compound issues, "new" parts don't always work either (damaged or poorly manufactured). Let us know if there is anything else we can do. Edited October 25, 2007 by swooshdave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthegas Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) As has been stated previously in this post, the black wire coming off the LT coil and connected to the ignition points, goes to the HT coil. The green wire goes to ground or, as you say across the pond, earth. Make sure you have the green wire grounded to bare metal on the frame. The red wire, which is soldered to the yellow wire on the LT coil, is for the brake light. Relocating the condensor to underneath the gas tank is an old Bultaco trick. The condensor gets extremely hot down in the ignition and breaks down over time. At first the bike becomes hard to start when warm. Then it will quit and lose spark after the bike warms up. Eventually it loses spark altogether. Moving the condensor gets it away from the heat source and puts it in a place where it is easier to replace. The ignition system doesn't care where the condensor is, it just needs to work to prevent arcing across the points. Edited October 25, 2007 by onthegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 (edited) Guys at last getting somewhere , two steps forward and one giant leap backwards , today took the unusal step of getting my "old" LT coil back from the supplier [yes gave them theirs back] and then re-treated the damaged / bared windings with some fresh nail varnish [jesssssssss does that stuff stink] , checked the black - green Ohmns reading 2.1 not sure if thats correct but least its not a short ! Re-fitted back onto stator plate , checked points do break contact ok , timed ignition 2.6mm BTDC [even though manual says 3, will change later] , re-connected Black wire to HT , Green to HT mount , plug on side of case & throw the switch [kickstart] ... A SPARK !!! So after all this it looks like my original LT coil maybe ok , I stress the "maybe" , because I've still not been able to get the bike to start but this is a move forward and proves the "new" LT coil was shot and has had me going round in circles !! Now I need to check to see if the spark I have , which I think should be ok ... IS OK ! If John or Dave are reading this , guys anychance you can put an Ohm meter accross the black n green wires , would love to know if my 2.1 reading is good, bad or there abouts ! Ok, now I've just got to kick-back n wait for my new carb to arrive , left Miami yesterday , hopefully it will bring some Florida sunshine with it ! All best , Greg BIG PS ,,,,,, what would happen if I removed the lighting coil , put another LT coil in its place , wired it in with the existing one [so it switched with the one set of points] and had two LT outputs feeding the one HT coil ? ,,,, no not mad just curious lol PPS , when i get the bike running will move the condensor as per the "old bultaco trick" lol Edited October 26, 2007 by gregr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 Guys at last getting somewhere , two steps forward and one giant leap backwards , today took the unusal step of getting my "old" LT coil back from the supplier [yes gave them theirs back] and then re-treated the damaged / bared windings with some fresh nail varnish [jesssssssss does that stuff stink] , checked the black - green Ohmns reading 2.1 not sure if thats correct but least its not a short !Re-fitted back onto stator plate , checked points do break contact ok , timed ignition 2.6mm BTDC [even though manual says 3, will change later] , re-connected Black wire to HT , Green to HT mount , plug on side of case & throw the switch [kickstart] ... A SPARK !!! So after all this it looks like my original LT coil maybe ok , I stress the "maybe" , because I've still not been able to get the bike to start but this is a move forward and proves the "new" LT coil was shot and has had me going round in circles !! Now I need to check to see if the spark I have , which I think should be ok ... IS OK ! If John or Dave are reading this , guys anychance you can put an Ohm meter accross the black n green wires , would love to know if my 2.1 reading is good, bad or there abouts ! Ok, now I've just got to kick-back n wait for my new carb to arrive , left Miami yesterday , hopefully it will bring some Florida sunshine with it ! All best , Greg BIG PS ,,,,,, what would happen if I removed the lighting coil , put another LT coil in its place , wired it in with the existing one [so it switched with the one set of points] and had two LT outputs feeding the one HT coil ? ,,,, no not mad just curious lol PPS , when i get the bike running will move the condensor as per the "old bultaco trick" lol I never think anyone bothered with the condenser outside except SSDT or maybe the scott. They don't fail that often and we used to change points and condenser anyways. I could be wrong but think two coils would induce current at different times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 I never think anyone bothered with the condenser outside except SSDT or maybe the scott. They don't fail that often and we used to change points and condenser anyways.I could be wrong but think two coils would induce current at different times? Of course you don't have to move the condenser, just something that you may want to try. I'm also not using a stock Bultaco condenser, so the outside mounting is my only option. I can't think of any reason why to use a second LT coil, other than I'm starting to suspect that the Greg likes to mess with things too much. Either that or he subscribes to the good ol' American philosophy that "if one is good, then more is better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregr Posted October 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 I never think anyone bothered with the condenser outside except SSDT or maybe the scott. They don't fail that often and we used to change points and condenser anyways.I could be wrong but think two coils would induce current at different times? Of course you don't have to move the condenser, just something that you may want to try. I'm also not using a stock Bultaco condenser, so the outside mounting is my only option. I can't think of any reason why to use a second LT coil, other than I'm starting to suspect that the Greg likes to mess with things too much. LMAO ... yes its the "think to much" engineer within .... but it was just a thought lol .....hey dont even get me going on 2-stroke oil & ratios !! All best Guys ! Either that or he subscribes to the good ol' American philosophy that "if one is good, then more is better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin3665 Posted October 27, 2007 Report Share Posted October 27, 2007 I sooo want to know how this turns out. I have very similar grief with a 250, bought it as a resto project. Before stripping it down I thought I'd see if it would run, even badly. Cleaned the carb, put fresh fuel in and it did run for about a minute, then stopped, restarted it and it would run but wasn't happy and no way would idle. Cleaned the carb again, no difference, new plug wouldn't run at all, old plug would run but only for a few seconds. Still none of this really mattered as I was stripping it anyway. So replaced the coil, points, condensor plug and plug cap, set the iginiton exactly right, checked with a bulb points were doing what they should. Checked timing and points again, I think you can see where this is going.. Anyway it wouldn't start, absolutely nothing, great spark, wet plug, but no bang, checked and rechecked everything, changed the plug, still nothing. Cleaned the carb, checked the jets, float height, etc, all perfect. But wouldn't start, removed the carb and tipped a small amount of fresh fuel in to the engine, this always produces some sort of result on a two stroke, but still nothing. Took of the exhaust to check if it was blocked, it wasn't. Kept on kicking, cleaning checking, etc, eventually got a bang in the exhaust from all the fuel that had now been pumped in there. I have at this moment, taken the engine out of the bike, removed the barrel, tipped it upside to remove any chance the thing is just totally flooded and oiled up. Any other suggestions, the bike has very good compression, and will occasionally kick back through the starter. I have not replaced the crank seals, as it hasn't been apart yet. I have NEVER had this much trouble with a two stroke ever, and I have had some right old nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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