06 Crack...

[copemech]

Neo, I have heard of this for years now, yet have never seen one. Do you have any pics? My EARLY '07 could eventually suffer this, yet I figured a bit of tig would do in the worst case.

Absolute worst, put on a scab plate reinforcement! Beat to fit, paint to match!

[neo]

Hi Cope,

Sorry I can't get you any pics for now because the bikes all assembled....but maybe in the next few weeks.

I thought like you that an extra weld strip would do the trick. But the welders I spoke to said it would make the frame weaker overall, not stronger. The guy that did the job on my 06 frame was a top, top welder (friend of a friend) with loads of experience in TIGing thin chrome-molly.

I don't think you'll have any problems with your 07 Frame.... It didn't take me long to crack my 06 frame but I fitted my second hand 07 frame quite some time back and I've had no problems with it.....Despite riding much bigger rocks now days too.

Best of balance.

Neo

[copemech]

Hi Cope,

Sorry I can't get you any pics for now because the bikes all assembled....but maybe in the next few weeks.

I thought like you that an extra weld strip would do the trick. But the welders I spoke to said it would make the frame weaker overall, not stronger. The guy that did the job on my 06 frame was a top, top welder (friend of a friend) with loads of experience in TIGing thin chrome-molly.

I don't think you'll have any problems with your 07 Frame.... It didn't take me long to crack my 06 frame but I fitted my second hand 07 frame quite some time back and I've had no problems with it.....Despite riding much bigger rocks now days too.

Best of balance.

Neo

Ok then , I understand what the welder is stating, he is obviously a pro. There are a lot of tricks to the trade, and the welders can analize the engineering mistakes!

I have studied this a bit, yet far from an expert, although I do have a good set of welders setting in the shop(gas through mig and tig) for general jobs.

[eastcoasthopper]

Hi Hopper,

Sorry to give you a bit of bad news but if all you removed was the radiator chances are you'll see that crack come back. I say this because to fix it properly the crack must be brought up to temperature with a torch, then TIG welded, then allowed to cool gradually. All this takes time/heat and a lot of paint (and stuff like decals and wires) gets cooked in the processes. I know because I did the same as you (the quick way) the the first and second time with a local welding company. The third time it cracked I took EVERYTHING off the frame and had a real top guy do the TIG-ing for me.

That 06 frame never actually made it back on my 250 because I bought an 07 frame and fitted that on my 06/250 instead.

Now beefing up your 06 frame is not as simple as it sound. Firstly the more you weld any metal the weaker the edges of the weld will get. That's unavoidable and one of the reasons it needs to be done buy someone with lots of expertise as he will minimise that effect as best he can.

Yes there are two additional weld lines on the 07 frame but it's not recommend that these are added now for the reason I stated above.

Another thing is the 06 an 07 frames are actually different shapes and it's not easy to see the differences when they fully assembled. But with both (empty) frames placed on the ground on their 4 baseplate mounting points, the steering column on the 07 sits about 2cm higher off the ground than the 06 frame. And I believe that this change in geometry has prevented the the 07 frame from getting the same cracks that the 06 frame did.

Having said all this I don't think the 06 frame is a bad one. And it doesn't crack if it's ridden with a certain level of respect....You can bash'em hard OK....but you just can't smash'em hard

Best of balance.

Neo

Thanks. I don't expect a simple weld to last long.

I know a real wiz welder. He said I'd have to remove the engine and everything to get it reinforced properly. I said, just weld it for now, I'm not tearing it apart in the middle of the season! That'll be a good winter project.

I'd still like to see what the new frame looks like.

[neo]

Update... I'm sorry to say this but I WAS WRONG!!!

Just my luck....after I say there's no cracks on my 07 Frame...sure enough I find a crack

So straight into action ... Stripped the bike down and prepare for welding ... providing the opportunity to compare the welding from one of my old 06 Frames with the welding on the 07 Frame.

06 Frame

07 frame

Hopefully you can read the notes on the photos but basicly the 07 frame has an extra "T" weld and the side support weld lines come further down the frames sides.

You may also notice two red circles on the 07 photo .... I have decided to be daring and try an idea that was given to me some time back .... Bolt an extra support brace plate across the bridge.....The red circles are where two holes will be drilled through the frame to to bolt fix a steel brace (strip) into place between the two holes....on the inside of the frame,

The other thing I'm having done it to continue the support weld line from the right side of the "T" to the right hand support weld (hope that makes sense?). As you'll note that the crack has started from the end of that support "T" weld (weakest point).

Wish me luck!!!

Best of balance.

Neo

[trialsnutterman]

I'd get it welded in place rather than bolting it.

I'm fairly certain my 07 bike had a plate welded across the back of that piece.

[copemech]

All this is very interisting. Sad to see the new crack, Neo. That is a bitch, and my thoughts kinda vary on this in looking at it.

Obviously, the old one was well bashed and multi repaired. I can only suspect that these stresses are incurred by bashes on the skidplate being transferred up through the structure? Are you a heavy bottom basher?

Second thought being I would almost be inclined to let the crack on the later one go, just to see if anything else actually happened. It relieves the stresspoint and lets things move as needed. If nothing worstens, no big deal.

A lot of precision forming of a doubler to spread load in that area, then a good tig job to put it in place would be the later option. Even this only spreads the loads, and can create other points of stress. Your welder friend may have an opinion on this.

I would not go with the bolt-on at this point, myself. This can induce its own problems.

In trying to take a look at mine, using mirror, it does seem to have the T weld and the later config. I am not a structual engineer, yet I almost wonder why they did not run the reinforcement bead all the way across for integrity. From the looks of the welds, seems it is all done quickly in production by Mig, I would guess. No precision welding here it seems.

[neo]

Are you a heavy bottom basher?

No I hate bashing the plate and will do anything I can to avoid it...Also I only weight 62Kgs so I can't be hitting that plate as hard as some do.

I know that one of the frames cracked while doing a cat jump that landed hard (front wheel slightly before the rear wheel). So I suspect the impact is coming though the steering column.

Second thought being I would almost be inclined to let the crack on the later one go, just to see if anything else actually happened. It relieves the stresspoint and lets things move as needed. If nothing worstens, no big deal. I would not go with the bolt-on at this point, myself. This can induce its own problems.

Sorry Cope I've jumped the gun and already done everything all at once. Doing everything at once is a weakness of mine I'm afraid ...Besides I know these cracks gradually get wider and wider so I think it's best caught before any gap appears.

I'm now in the process of respraying the whole frame.....which has be a long time coming and I'm well prepared for.

Best of balance.

Neo

[joostio]

My 06 frame is also cracked above the rad. It has been like this for some time. So far I continue to ride it as is and have yet to notice any problems. Mine has a small gap, when I get it fixed I do not plan to squeez it back together, the frame seems to want the gap there. I also was thinking about bolting a plate across but after reading this post I suspect I won't. I am thinking about having a plate welded on the inside and creating a boxed frame section above the rad. Good post so far. Its going to kill me to take the bike apart for that long as I ride every weekend. Maybe a full sandblast and powder coating at the same time, spice up the colours.

[lankydoug]

I would rather the manufacturer add a little more material where it is needed and let the bike weigh a pound more and be dependable. If you got a new frame piece and laminated it with carbon fiber before it was cracked it would most likely never crack and wouldn't add much weight but what a pain to re-engineer things.

[neo]

So far I continue to ride it as is and have yet to notice any problems.... I do not plan to squeez it back together

Hi Joostio,

That crack on the left had side of the of my first photo above appeared after ignoring the original break across the bar.... don't leave it too long.

I believe the second crack came as a result of sides of the fame flexing out when landing hard.... So I choose to squeeze the side back together while welding to minimise that effect.

I am thinking about having a plate welded on the inside and creating a boxed frame section above the rad.

Hmm.. I like this idea but I kinda get the feeling that the whole area is designed to flex a bit. I know it all looks as simple as adding a little more material where it is needed but I think there's more to the "stresses and strains" of this frame than meets the eye here.

lankydoug... I like the carbon fiber idea ....might try that if I have to venture down this road again

I still think my bolt on brace will help hold things together. If nothing else it will hold the sides together if she cracks again .... god forbid!!

Let us know how you go gents.

Best of balance.

Neo

[neo]

Hi All,

Something has been bothering me about that crack on the left hand side of the frame. Could someone please correct me if I am wrong but I've seen that crack 3 times now and each time it's been on the left...The question is why only on the left hand side?

One thing that came to mind today is that when the compression washer on the header pipe goes flat the pipe can edge back and rest against the frame leg on that side. Could it be the heat that causing this?...Could it be a tapping type of vibration that's helping this along?

Whats your thoughts?

Best of balance.

Neo

[copemech]

Hi All,

Something has been bothering me about that crack on the left hand side of the frame. Could someone please correct me if I am wrong but I've seen that crack 3 times now and each time it's been on the left...The question is why only on the left hand side?

One thing that came to mind today is that when the compression washer on the header pipe goes flat the pipe can edge back and rest against the frame leg on that side. Could it be the heat that causing this?...Could it be a tapping type of vibration that's helping this along?

Whats your thoughts?

Best of balance.

Neo

I rather doubt that this is vibration related cracking, as the motor is bolted directly to those sections anyway. The pipes do run close to the frame, and it is possible to stack two exhaust gaskets in there to gain a bit of clearance if needed. Usually not needed unless ones pipe is tweaked a bit.

I am back to the compression/ tension forces exerted on this section of the frame initiated by the lower section of the steering head which it supports. The metal is relatively thin and light, and the entire thing seems to be designed to allow flex and absorbtion while distributing the loads through the structure so it all moves together within it's limits of plasticity.

The fact that the cracks seem to spread may be an indication of extreme compression, then normal relaxation so the metal cannot return.

They obviously put the T weld in there to help spread the center load out a bit, maybe not quite far enough, or possibly should have continued this all accross the top section to the others to eliminate any central points of stress.

The "TIS" or time in service of this bike and frame must also be taken into consideration. To be honest, Neo may well have spent 10 or more times the hours on the bike than me in the last few years.

[neo]

. To be honest, Neo may well have spent 10 or more times the hours on the bike than me in the last few years.

That's good news for you Cope. Means you won't see a crack for another 27 years or so

I've come up with the perfect solution!!.... I'm gonna leave a BIG steel G-Clamp on the outside(s) of the frame and ride it like that! .... no one will notice

Best of balance.

Neo

Edited September 22, 2010 by Neo

[for artie]

I would rather the manufacturer add a little more material where it is needed and let the bike weigh a pound more and be dependable. If you got a new frame piece and laminated it with carbon fiber before it was cracked it would most likely never crack and wouldn't add much weight but what a pain to re-engineer things.

Wise words!