Sherpa T Model 10 Difference Series 1 & 2

[Winki]

Hello togehter,

I am on the way to buy a model 10 for restauration.
The bike is mostly disassembled.  

On which parts can I identify if it is an early series 1 or the second version.

 

Thanks

Carsten

 

[71zman]

The gas tank is the most obvious difference. The M10 V1 has a round tank with two hold down bolts on the front side of the tank, the M10 V2 has a more flat tank with a single hold down bolt on the top near the gas filler.👍 

[Winki]

Thanks for the pictures.

So basically I also can identify the correct frame for V1 by the fixation points for the round tank, correct ?

Are there also technical differences like carbourator, shocks, brakes ?

 

Thanks

Carsten

[71zman]

Yes, the V1 has bolt holes in the side of the frame, the V2 has a stud on the top of the frame.

The only other noticeable difference is the seat. The front bolt hold down on the V1 goes through the vinyl seat cover, the V2 it is on a bracket under seat.

As far as mechanical goes, they are very similar...  both use the IRZ carb, both have the radial head, both use 35mm Betor forks. The rear springs are hard to figure out. 660NHO in the Sammy Miller museum has Betor shocks although many older pictures (and the parts book) call out rear Girling shocks. 

The most important thing to look for is the numbers match - frame number is stamped on the steering head, the engine number on the engine case.

[woody]

The bashplate mountings are different, on V1 there are two U shaped 2 bolt brackets welded to the frame, one just in front of the bottom engine mount, the other just below the front engine mount. The V2 only has one midway between the two engine mounts.  The V1 engine has a smaller diameter shaft on th ignition side of the crank and doesn't have a lighting coil.  The V2 has the bigger crank, same as later bikes and has a lighting coil

Carb, airbox, shocks are all the same, wheels I'm not sure, I've seen it mentioned that the V1 rear hub had a cush drive (mine doesn't) and that it came with chrome rims, V2 had alloy rims

V2 is said to have the frame number on the headstock whereas earlier bikes had it low on the frame by footrest or higher on seat rail but I think this can be inconsistent, my V1 has the number on the headstock and it's a low-ish number.  V1 had a black bottom yoke, V2 was silver

Obviously with the bike being near 60 years old anything could have been changed or modified in that time though

[woody]

5 minutes ago, 71zman said:

The rear springs are hard to figure out. 660NHO in the Sammy Miller museum has Betor shocks although many older pictures (and the parts book) call out rear Girling shocks. 

 

That bike is a replica

[71zman]

24 minutes ago, woody said:

That bike is a replica

Really, I did not know that...where is the real one?

[woody]

It was owned by a private individual for years then sold a few years ago, where to I don't know

[Winki]

Good information thanks a lot.

Is there also a link to the frame number  V1  vs V2

In some pages I found the information for USA and National models  

Is that similar to V1 =  up to 479   V2 the rest  ?

[woody]

I've never seen anything that gives information as to specific serial numbers for V1 and V2. It seems plausible that 1 - 479 are V1 but I wouldn't know for sure. The chart also says '1er' model for both but I'd assume that means 1st version of the Sherpa T.

No idea what the reference to USA and Spanish versions are, the serials numbers don't carry a suffix A or N on the bikes and I think most were sold to the UK anyway. 

The features of the frame are likely to be the best identifiers of V1 or V2

[71zman]

15 hours ago, woody said:

It was owned by a private individual for years then sold a few years ago, where to I don't know

I think there were many 669NHO's in the day. This picture shows the 669NHO plate on a M10V2. I brought this to the SM Museum last year and asked Sammy about it. He laughed and said they routinely grabbed plates off of other bikes and used them. 

[woody]

Yes, not just works teams either. The first 5 speed model 27 he had used the same plate as a later 4 speed bike.

The original 669 NHO wasn't a Sherpa T as such as the T didn't exist at the time, the frame was a modified Matador, which is how the original NHO frame can be identified, from the mods and welds

[sherpa325]

As these model bikes are really scarce here in Australia, I was always under the impression that the first Sherpa T was derived from the Sherpa N but it also appears that the Matador has a very similar model number M4 vs M4-1. I was wondering whether they both shared the same frame with some minor variations, brackets etc. If anyone could shed some light it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Greg

[woody]

If you mean the production Sherpa N and Matador, I don't know either that well but although the frames share the same basic design I'd say the Matador is more bulky with more bracketry and reinforcement. The Sherpa N looks more bare like the Sherpa T

I forgot one word when I mentioned about 669 NHO being based on a Matador frame and that was 'probably' I guess it could just as easily be based on a Sherpa N, which, thinking about it, seems more likely. It is known that the frame number of NHO begins with a 4

[sherpa325]

The couple of books I have at home say the first Sherpa T was based on the Millers modified Sherpa N. It's hard to find any information on the Sherpa N or the Matador, so it is difficult to work out what differences there are in those two models.