dman Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 No, your talk is not cheap. Its just taken so much discussion on the same points 15 times over to get anything done. That's all I'm saying. Simply offering an oppertunity to ride the 125s may not be best. You might want to find kids willing to enter, stay in the class, and compete in it for a good while. Otherwise, you will have this 125 class (training kids for the big leagues) and it'll have the problem of low ridership and decreased "ones-upmanship" which is essential to push kids to their potential. But get 2-3 aspiring riders plus others and pit them against each other in a 10+ person class and you will get the results you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Dman, seems I recall that a good part of the HS class ride 1.25 as it is. I think Ronnie Commo is on the 1.25 in EX! Just be glad you are not competing against Ray Peters on a 1.25! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 (edited) Last names tucker - 280 GG allen - 280 GG manning - 290? 250? sherco oldar - I'm not sure, 125 i think roblin - 280 GG mizells - 280 GG, 290?(i think) sherco sweeten - 300 monty(i dunno what the monty is) wenger - 270 beta There are a few more, but these are the main competitors. And only 1 125 among them, high school class anyways. I'm sure junior is different, or is that what you were referring to copemech? Ray would still kick my ass on an 80, never mind a 125. Edited April 29, 2006 by Dman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 (edited) dman makes a good point, Pressure makes champions. I totally agree with this young man on that point. As an old timer who has had a lot of success, let me point out the obvious. Life is choices! Some riders will choose to shoot for the stars "world Championship" some will aim for Geoff Aaron and some will be happy simply riding with dad, his pals and others for fun. All is good. We choose to step into the lions den, it's not forced on us. Its tough up there at the world championship. It's not for the faint of heart! It's sort of like aiming for an Ivy league college, the Olympics or speical forces. It takes total dedication and commitment, not everyone is cut out of that cloth. Which is OK, we are not bad people for not going to Yale, the Olympics or becoming a Navy SEAL, not everyone can be the best of the best at something! What I'm simply pointing out is giving our youngsters quality choices and oppertunities is important. I'm one of the few who have consistantly fought for the young riders of the USA who desire to strive for excellence. That fight has cost me plenty, it would be a lot easier and smarter for me to simply hideout and say nothing or sacrifice nothing for young American trials riders. Personal gain has not always been my motivating emotion, otherwise I would not have been AMA sportsman of the year. Edited April 29, 2006 by Mich Lin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 How do we keep Andrew Oldar on a 125? Being on that bike is a BIG disadvantage at some trials and sections against full size bikes at the US nationals. Yet if he hopes to compete in world championship trials and succeed, Andrew must remain on the 125cc bike until he is 18. If he is consistantly beat at US nationals because of his engine size, how will he ever get any importer support or have the confidence to remain on the 125? Only by giving him and other riders a very good reason to remain back on the 125 will he stay on one. An offical US championship for that size bike would be a GREAT reason to stay one one. This is an honest question and a very nagging problem! Keeping the kids on 125cc bikes. Now if somebody else can come up with as good or even better solution than a 125cc nationals championship to keep the kids on 125cc bike until they are 18, I'll all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Hey, maybe Ray would win the 125cc national championship! He would be a good target for all you guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted April 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Mark The problem as I see it with a 125 class is that we already have enough classes. If we start off into classing by displacement as well as ability and age we should just start handing out trophies when folks come in the gate to save a bit of time.. The problem with keeping a kid below 250 (or whatever) is that trials is already a very low turnout type sport, with comparitively few bikes to select from. Let's not exclude ANYONE that wants to compete. I guess I see it like this, we should do everything we can to gain maximum participation, but that being said, we do not need to create more classes to increase this participation, this just get's to be trophy handing out at some point. As it stands now, a child / parent that see's riding a 125 as the right track to go to a European championship has the ability to do just that. We do not need to create a special class for him. Lane, actually, my kid did not raise his hand, and several others did not as well.... I happened to be standing there when you said who wants to be world champion and what I rememember was the kids were more interested in going swimming. How do WE keep Andrew Oldar on a 125? WE don't. Mark know's far more about trials then I and certainly more about what is best and appropriate for his son. FAR be it from me to try and regulate him (or really anyone for that matter) into something that they do not feel is best. And gee, I did not even have to go looking to hard to find a reference to you wanting to increase pressure on the kids..... You posted it for me in this post... Mich Lin Posted Today, 06:16 PM dman makes a good point, Pressure makes champions. I totally agree with this young man on that point. As an old timer who has had a lot of success, let me point out the obvious. Life is choices! Where is that guy that said I keep turning converstaion's away from the valid point that Lane is trying to make? HEY LANE, I GOT IT, YOU WANT TO SEE A 125 YOUTH NATIONAL CLASS. Quit beating it up on this board and go present it yourself to the NATC and convince them it is a good idea. Of course it would probably be helpful if you attended one of their events every now and then. Write Brian and ask if you can attend the meeting, at one point Former National champions were invited I believe. Quit flailing about here, put some of that big time movie money behind what you talk about, come up with an excellent presentation and get the NATC behind you. So you gonna show at the WR or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 use the modify/edit button lane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Alan, Are there already enough classes to add a 1.25 class, or are there TOO MANY classes already? Yes, adding a 1.25 class is a problem. Adding a 1.25 class that anyone can ride is less of a problem as there may well be others outside the teen age group that want to ride it! Trying to see both sides of the coin here, that is also why a simpler age class of 30,40,50,60,70 would help level things out! Competition within classes would increase as well, or for those who opt to do so there is still SP or ES at either end of the spectrum. I realize that this is radical thinking compared to the existing NATC format, but I do believe that riding the 1.25's requires more skill and better tecnique and they teach the rider to use a better riding style and this is a plus for rider development! And that is also where even the most excellent kids like Dman have to learn that "IT'S NOT THE BIKE, DUDE!" It's a SKILL thing! That 280 Gasser will not get you past a skilled rider on a 1.25! But it WILL make you lazy while relying upon power to get you around! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsaqam Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Amen cope! An all ages welcome 125 class with a National Championship at the end would do just fine IMO. Nearly everyone agrees that riding a smaller displacement bike helps to build skills that often get neglected when a rider graduates to a big bore machine. Folks need incentive to stay on the small bore and a National Championship may provide enough. Alan points out that adding more classes soon makes it a trophy giving exercise. I think we're already there! The age classes for every 5 year increment is excessive and cope is right to say they should be 10 year increments. Bigger, more competitive classes and plenty of room for a valuable 125 class. Nobody gets excluded because there are still the "run what you brung" classes. Seems like a slam dunk to me but we'll have to wait and see what the NATC thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted April 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 (edited) Mark, I am not quite sure how to answer your question. Are there too many classes? Yes, in my opinion but I am not a promoter on the NATC scene, nor do I get to hear directly what is said at the NATC meeting nor do I know the $s that support the series. I implicitly trust that my NATC reps, Dan Brown, Ron Milam (past) and Jim Watson, as well as the riders reps, and manufacturers reps that make up the NATC have the best interest of Trials at heart. I certainly do not agree with all their decisions (open meeting's being one sore sticking point for me) but fully realize that they are making these decisions with more information and input then I have at my disposal. FWIW I firmly believe in the "slippery slope" theory. You have to start from that basis to understand where I see things from. So this year, we add a 125 class, so now, we have "displacement" classes, as well as ability classes and age classes. Next year will we have a 200 class? Can we put in an 80 class so the riders on a smaller bike can be competitive? Why don't we have seperate 250 and 290 classes as they are different.\ How about a 4 stroke class as they make traction differently and hold an advantage / disadvantage depending on what side the fence you are on. While NSAGM will say I am being ridiculous, there are some here who will see (and as a matter of fact have heard the arguments for the things I have mentioned) Again, in some points, I really do not have a dog in this hunt at present. Seems to me that the folks that have vested interest in this are not on here talking about it (with the exception of Ron and maybe someone else I do not realize) Adding the 125 class will not truly effect me for several years to come at best, so, for all I care add it away. Still have not quite got clear what line they will ride, I think it was said somewhere, or maybe there will be a 125 class for all 4 lines. I would put forth that if the proponents of this 125 class want it to fly, they need to have it in a clear, conscise format that it easy to understand and quick and accurate to communicate. What Line it will ride, (or maybe what Lines) Who they would expect to attend / participate would be relevant too me (although I am not sure what the NATC would worry about) What the benefits are to the NATC should be carefully worded out. Saying it is "obvious" and it will make us "World Champs" will not fly. I would also suggest that Trials folks in general do not change courses at the drop of a hat, to suggest a total revamp of the system such as minimizing (halving) of the age classes with the argument that you want to reduce classes, while in the same discussion saying you want to add these additional 1-4 classes will be met with a bit of So, for all this debate on here, and gnashing of teeth, WHO here has spoken with their NATC rep about making this a reality? Oh, and on edit, I think I should get to compete in the National 125 class on a 290 as the lb to CC ratio is about the same as many of these guys on a 125 Edited April 30, 2006 by Alan Bechard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Alan, your kid is one cool kid, he's always coming aound our camp. As for kids raising their hands wanting to be world champ. That might have been another time, I remember your kid raising his hand and don't remember any other adults around. Hey, sometimes swimming sounds best of all to me too. I think your right Alan, that people will always nit-pic, complain and drag their feet about coming around to world standards, or just about anything else that does not benifit them personally. Dropping some classes would also create great screams of pain and nashing of teeth amoung the sportsmen riders. So I won't go there. I believe your also right about too many classes but I promised the NATC that I would not disturb the status quo of the sportsmen nationals with my proposals. So it only delt with consolodating Experts and Pros, moving the Women's championship to another venue so they could compete with the guys and adding a 125cc class run on the sportsmen line to start with, with tough final sections. Of course a harder mix of sections could be added anytime later as we developed the class. I appreciate your concerns, understand your points about the slippery slope. Your right somebody will always nic-pic and belly-ache trying to cheery pick. That's the point where somebody at the top has to show some leadership and draw clear boundries. I understand that is not easy because there are so many individual interests but hey, so far the NATC has done an excellent job of providing great sportsmen competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted May 1, 2006 Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 Alan, I'm no advocate of the FIM, but at least their trackrecord seems to show a willingness to try new things in an effort to better trials. Some similarity to the Euros and the FIM, WTC, and the rest of the world is not a bad thing! Yes, there would be a few p****d off old timers because they would not neccessarily be able to "own" an age class for five years without much competitiion! Or maybe just ride the Sportsman class and maybe we would get a better TRUE national ranking within the group, instead of having everyone want to be a class champ! The AGE classes are as big or bigger as the main SP class for gods sake! Slippery slope? Both the limits are already set! 125 and 250! Slippery slope? I would prefer a SR Amature class where OVER 200 pounders could ride what they want, and the rest of us have 250cc or less so the hp/wt ratio is proportionate and there are "little bitty" split gates around the hard stuff! That way, a couple hundred more of us actually could RIDE a National event without killing ourselves! The MONEY would DOUBLE! Geese, what an idea! I need another beer now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 How about we eliminate skill level as a criteria and just have one line that everyone rides. This is supposed to be the best of the best right? Then we can have a 125 and 250 and 270 class and the various age classes. And how about a open modified machine class that the "pros" can compete in. All with 18 foot splatters. OK enough stupidity from me hope you had a chuckle. :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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