laird387

Hi, Another delve in the archives, another Cheetah pic, this one also from my Offroadarchive, photo by the late Gordon Francis. The Cheetah ridden by Paul Dunkley in 1967. Hope it helps.

Hi, An insight into why the British motorcycle industry disappeared, virtually without trace, came when I was chatting with Bob Manns, some years later, about his old works bike TUL 654, which I was riding at the time. Bob, who had also worked for Triumph, was Sales Manager for AMC at Plumstead in 1961. Elated with Jacko's historic one dab win in Fort William, and knowing that AMC sales were, in general, declining he rushed back to the factory with an exciting proposal for the board of directors. "We can market a Jackson Works Replica on the back of that wonderful result," he announced, "we can leave off all the bits that the buyers all take off and throw away, like the mudguard-mounted front number plate, the front mudguard stay, the long rear mudguard stay and the heavy number plate, the tool box, the heavy oil tank and put a small alloy tank above the gearbox, we'll be able to sell it for £20 more than the standard bike - and we'll sell hundreds ............." The Financial Director was aghast; "Charge more for a machine with less parts fitted, don't be ridiculous........." The topic was never raised again - and Bob was a very disillusioned man.

Hi, Just to add a little spice to the topic, this image, taken by my much missed colleague, Gordon Francis, shows another mate, Gordon Jackson, with his 1962 bike, adding a little 'spit and polish' with the 'Solvol Autosol' (see the tin on the saddle) in readiness for the weigh-in at the Scottish.

Hi, 'Tis Victor Meldrew's Grumpy Old Dad again ! My answer to my original question is that the reality of the 'allow anything' mentality has created precisely the situation where so-called 'slightly modified' expensive machinery results in many organisers setting sections which are tighter, steeper, harder than ever they were 'in the day' - which is all well and good if you are either capable of doing your own engineering to meet the new section challenges - or can afford to buy 'suitable' machinery. Precisely the situation that obtained when three of us who couldn't afford to buy a new Spanish trialler but still wanted to ride our trials machines set to and organised the very first 'pre-65' trial, which we called the 'Bigger Banger Trial' on the land above the Red Lion pub. We had fifty-three entries, which compared favourably with the current modern events in the area who were lucky to get thirty souls out on a Sunday. That first event was won by Arthur Lampkin who brought his rigid Gold Star across the Pennines from Silsden and thoroughly enjoyed himself. We decided to make the event an annual day out and, for the second running, changed the title to 'The Shawforth Shake' and the rest is history. Sadly, as one who saw it all before but then bothered to do something about it, I am seeing history repeat itself, as it inevitably does, and it saddens me.

Hi, Sorry for the delay - here's the Cheetah information, all taken from the magazine that I published 'Off-Road Review'. Regards Deryk Wylde

Hi, Did you realise it was named the Stroud as a result of success in the British Experts, held in the Stroud area on occasion pre-war?

To Jon v8, When I bought Peter Gaunt's Ducati trials special, since we were old friends, he warned me that; "The carburation needs finishing, I just can't get it to pull reliably - so don't come back complaining - if you take it, you fix it." He was, of course, accurately reporting the way the bike performed. Using it, say, on an uphill section it would pull away like a tractor, then when you came to the easy turn at the top before starting back downhill it would just splutter and die on you. Trying to get it to tick-over reliably was my first goal, but fiddling with every aspect of the carburettor had little or no improvement - then my electronic engineering background made me decide to rule out every concievable variable first, then try the carburettor. Peter had cleverly fitted the flywheel ignition system from a 160cc Ducati twostroke on to the desmodromic 350 fourstroke, so i eliminated that by running a lead from the points on the bike to the coil on my car alongside and then a long lead to the plug cap - using the cars coil ignition !!! Kicked over the Ducati, started first prod and settled to a tick-tock reliable tickover - never touched the carb. Light dawned, swopped back to the flywheel ignition, the bike coughed and spluttered and just would not tickover. Out came the soldering iron, a small rechargeable battery was fitted behind the front number plate, the ignition coil from a Triumph Thunderbird under the petrol tank - then prodded the kickstart. Thump, thump, steady as a rock. Took it out to my favourite practice ground in Adel woods, swooped up and down, in and out of the streams, over the rocks, never missed a beat. The bike was a revelation, utterly transformed. After that I started rebuilding my own magnetos as part of my restorations.

Hi, Having owned and ridden similar machines I would strongly recommend looking at the spark before going into any expense with carburation, especially since it already has a more modern carb. than original. Good luck.

Hi Charlie, I have stacks of photos of Ron Langston and Doug Cooper - we are old friends - Ron's wife shared cancer treatment with my fist wife, etc. So many of the old crowd are no longer with us, Arthur Pulman and Lyn, Peter Roydhouse, Jack Matthews. For my sins I introduced the French to sidecar trials, when I worked in Paris I was coerced into helping organise the St Cucufa trial, and put on a sidecar demonstration in 1964, with six outfits, which I conducted round the course, taking them on detours in various placed where it was just too narrow to get through - my abiding memory is of riding my solo flat out with the six crews chasing, led by Alec Wright with John Gazely in the chair, with his fron wheel on one side of my bike and the sidecar nose on the other. I bought the Ossa outfit that they built and rode for a while, and rode with Mary in the chair for a couple of seasons. Hence my interest in the chariot brigade. Deryk

Hi, Charlie, Should have added to my last thread, somewhere in my loft I have the 6 x 4.5 colour transparencies of the ex-Darrieulat outfit that I used in the article for an unmentionable Classic magazine, which resulted in me never writing for that publisher again, and then starting ORR......... I will start a hunt when the weather gets better - it's cold up there...... Regards, Deryk

Hi Charlie, I will also have a look through ORR 19, I may well have an electronic copy of the image that went to the printers when I published ORR - if I can find it, I can send you a high resolution copy. All the Best, Deryk

Hi, I can shed light on the query in this thread as to why Sam would sometimes ride GON 786 when his 'real' bike was GOV. The answer came from Sam himself when I was with him in his new museum checking the details of an article I had written about him for one of the magazines, as I did before publication of every word I wrote, to be sure they were correct. I queried one of the pictures which clearly showed a different oil tank arrangement. Sam knew instantly: "There were certain trials' he said, " and the Polish Tatra Trial was typical, where your bike had to shipped out by sea, which could take weeks. I didn't want to lose GOV for that period whilst it went out, and also coming back, so I used my 'training' bike." I am also fairly sure the same was true of certain other trials, like the Scott maybe, where a bruising ride for both rider and bike could be the order of the day, that the heavier GON might be wheeled out. Regards Deryk

Hi, I have plenty of images of Cheetahs, plus it was covered in my 'Offroad Review' in detail for which I have all the original material that went to the printers, so I could make an electronic reprint for you to be able to use on your computer, simply for reimbursement of my costs, if you are interested. I can tell you that if the frame isn't nickel plated, then it isn't original. Regards, Deryk Wylde

Hi enthusiasts, Sorry, Charlie, my private note to you on the history of the GOV rebuild neglected one vital piece of information. When I did the deal to undertake the restoration the remit was simple. The machine was to look right, start and run correctly - but not be used in serious competition again. On my own Ariel's I could safely start them by hand (I was an old-school electronics engineer) so I rebuilt the motor using one of my own cams - and I completely refurbished the magneto - so that the restored bike could also be started very easily. Incidentally I still have small stocks of the Ariel tank transfers left - and myriads of photographs - including photographs of Ariel works riders on the GOV 130, 131 and 132 bikes - with number plates visible in trials in the 1930s so the DVLA information referred to in the thread would appear not to be totally trustworthy. Keep the information flowing - I am always willing to help, but as a pensioner I now have to rely on a little help with contributions to my costs. Regards, Deryk Wylde (a.k.a. Laird387)

Hi, Following up on 'Old Trials Fanatic' comments, Yorks Classic do have a passionate following because, having learned the hard way the club were NEVER afraid to say, 'You're welcome to ride for the fun - but that bike is NOT pre-65, so won't be in the results. How did they get scrutineers? Remember the late, and sadly missed, Howard Midgley with his Wehrmacht helmet with Gestapo markings and scrutineer writ large upon it - a light humorous touch, but a very pointed 'Sorry, lad' if the bike had been 'modified'. And he meant the 'sorry' and he very definitely meant the 'no' !!! As 'Punch' was often heard to screech, 'That's the way to do it!'

Hi, Charlie, Just a random thought for you - now that I'm well into my dotage and before Alzheimer's strikes, I still have virtually all my background pictures, mostly now in electronic copies, plus the originals of the material that went to the printers when I was creating ORR as well as the Rich Mixture series of books. I am concentrating these days on large scale landscape photographs and have all the equipment to print highly detailed, high quality images. I notice you still use ORR as a reference so if there are any articles or pictures that would help you - or your colleagues - with pictures I am quite happy to provide reprint quality (NOT photocopy) articles or photographs, like the cover on ORR 91 for example, simply for reimbursement of my costs. You only have to ask. By the way, I agree that machines from anywhere, east or west, would be acceptable, the only reason my original series was termed the 'British Bike' championship was because I was writing for 'British Bike Magazine' at the time, and Tim Holmes stumped up the cash for some of the silverware. Regards Deryk

Hi to JonV8, As the Founder President of Bath Classic, I think I know just what your sections are like, but, and this applies to Sparks2, who rides with another of the clubs that I helped through start-up, I've already seen all the bickering that surrounded the SSDT, and as that is now my local event it hurts me to see such unnecessary potential misery simply because of the lack of a set of rules that are thoroughly understandable and very easy to apply. Sorry, but just hoping the problems will go away happened before - and you are both members of clubs that were specifically created to ensure the problems went away so that people could just carry on riding their bikes and enjoying themselves. All that I am really saying is, there are problems - and all because nobody wants to grasp the nettle and solve the riddle of the rules. 'Nuff said.

Hi, Way back when, I (well-known as Victor Meldrew's grumpy old Dad) along with like minded friends, were involved in the creation of pre-65 trials, we were motivated by the fact that the Spanish manufacturers had looked at the potential market for trials machines then had designed and built machines from scratch actually suitable for the sport. We were all riding British machines, none of which had been designed and built for the sport, but merely adapted from the current road machinery. The Spanish lightweights had better ground clearance, tighter turning circles, controllable power output and well chosen gear ratios. They were a lot easier to ride in the sections so the organisers had to create tighter, more demanding obstacles in order to sort the men from the boys. It quickly developed to the state where the old British bangers could not manage the tight turns, sudden sharp climbs - no matter what the skill level of the rider. Many couldn't afford to bring up a young family and buy a brand new Spanish machine (there was no second hand market - the bikes hadn't been here long enough!) so we created the sport for which I coined the phrase 'pre-65', where we could continue to ride our old British bikes. Then the old wheel of progress churned, time passed, lax clubs turned a blind eye to incorrect eligibility in order to gain entries (or so they thought), and eventually sections were tightened to sort out the men from the boys and the 'cheat' machines became the norm. Now if you brought a genuinely eligible 'pre-65' machine to the standards required by me for the 'British Bike' series that I organised that subsequently became the 'Sammy Miller' series, I doubt whether you could find many sections that you could cope with. 'Big John' suggested a while back that maybe the Pre-65 SSDT could think about changing its title to the Pre-Unit SSDT, and I agree, there would be a lot of potential merit in that thought. I wonder whether it is time to introduce new standards, simple factors like maximum ground clearance, minimum wheelbase, minimum weight - and maybe even more radical, like having to accept an offer of, say £2000, for any machine winning a championship trial, in order to limit the eventual cost of the sport in order that more people can afford to participate without resort to the current expensive ultra-specials. Just a few random thoughts to try, once again, to save one of our sports from extinction.

Hi, The 'sports' invalid three wheeler at the SSDT in the 1960's and 70's was none other than Derry Preston-Cobb, the disabled Sales Manager for Invacar, who, of course, manufactured the Greeves. Special days.

Hi, The gearing sounds about right to me, I always used that combination. The trick with an Ariel is that they want to work, set it to a higher gear than you would normally use, retard the ignition a tad until you feel the back end beginning to bite into the grip, then ride it and hang on - they will climb anywhere - and when going down the hills use a lot of retard to make the back wheel drag - you'll get better control than on the brake - and if it gets too slow, just a whiff of valve lifter. Proper bikes need riding properly. Enjoy.

Hi, Most of the responses have given you good advice - really just get the bike into tidy, rideable condition complete with MOT and then get out into the open air and ENJOY it. I appreciate your interest isn't in trials riding but one piece of advice I can offer. I knew all the BSA works riders personally and often rode with them in both local and national trials and they ALL far preferred the C15 pulling power compared to the B40, they all tried the 343 versions as demanded by the works, but you could never find elusive grip on a slippery slope with the 343 like you could with the 250 - so to all you budding pre-65 stars out there, spending fortunes building ultra special B40 based bikes why don't you ask yourselves ---'why bother?'. Pre-65 trials were intended to enjoy - not to cost a fortune. Remember we only created the sport because we couldn't afford to buy a NEW Bultaco, Montesa or Ossa when they took over standard trials.

J. D Noble won a First Class award in the 1961 trial, dropping 117 marks on his 246 DOT. If anyone else has historical queries on SSDT results up to 1969 - just ask !