Thanks for your feedback. I was fortunate enough to not only meet your friend but have some really great meanngfull dialogue. It was very important and I enjoyed it. Perhaps you should talk to him to find out the scope of the what the TAC is doing and our mandate. I find it quite interesting that anytime questions are raised about the legitimacy of WTc and its motives, its classified as bashing. As an importer of trials bikes, of course the smart thing for you to do is associate with both entities. Thats business. The TAC is about the Sport, in Canada.
Feedback is always good, but doesnt offer the same benefits of actually doing something.
MX, Enduro, Dirt Track, Road Racing and a lot of Trials have done well outside the CMA. They have created their own regional organizations and done well. I really don't think a National organization is needed for any of these disciplines, Canada is simply too big to manage it and it's not easy to keep everyone from Vancouver Island to the east coast on the same page.
It would not surprise me that maybe 1 in 10 trials bike owners in Canada actually compete. Would there be any more than 200 competing riders across Canada? I see no need for a National Governing body for these riders.
Maybe the CMA and WTC should agree on just one item. Name their respective Championships under their name only.
Therefore -
WTC Championship - East and West
CMA Championship.
Leave the word National out of it.
cheers
I believe that because the CMA is a member of the worldwide Federation and has held our National Championship for Trials for well over 60yrs that it will remain what it is. Numbers or not, it is important to have a strong and meaningful National Championship. Its also a necessity for our top riders to obtain an International license to compete abroad.
WTC can do what ever it wants, but a good step would be to call IT'S series, the WTC Championship. Its not recognized by anyone other than itself (governing bodies).This includes our neighbors to the south, the AMA and the Natc.
What I am saying ( and you dont seem to see it or answer my questions) is that any club in Canada does not NEED anyone, until such point that they want to say host a National, have riders who desire to ride Internationally or aspire to ride for their country on the Tdn team. If you do, then you will have to be a CMA member. I am also saying that a strong National Federation is good for anyone who desires to do what I have layed out. Some clubs realize this and support by affiliation. You have been told by the CMA ( a non profit organization) that money raised for trials will go towards trials.
You did not answer me about if you have a membership card or proof of being a member of WTC. YOu have also admitted that you do not use their insurance, so I do not understand what you say about being apart of some people who give you advice and rules etc. In my experience, this is an unwritten code of all trials clubs and organizations accross North America. Nothing new.
The WTC will not get bigger...... I find it interesting that you assume the WTC is a National body. Not only is it recognized by anyone, the FIM does not know of its existence. Approximately 90 percent of the World of Trials is under the FIM umbrella. You also didn't answer my questions raised about that and your supposed free membership.
I know all the parties involved, and the inside chatter that you may not have been included in. Unfortunately I believe you are not privy to all of it and with your young group it doesn't matter to them. It is in its nature very dis-honest and troubling.
We just returned from Canadian Nationals and the TRS my son has been riding is completely stock other that Boyesen Carbon Tech Reeds. The bike has been running flawlessly so far and he has had NO issues at all. It just seems to run perfect. About geometry, its interesting the feedback he gave me after this weekend where there were many steep descents in the trial. He said hes has never ridden a bike where the geometry was so noticeable. Not only the way it goes up stuff when hitting big things, but how confidence inspiring it is going downhills where now he never feels like the front end will ever tuck in like other bikes he has ridden. (GG and Beta).
The bike has been ridden hard from day one so far (Champ class) and its performs like a champ! I am pretty impressed for a totally new bike, but not surprised from what I know about Jordi Tarres.
Comparing what you are doing in NS and the trials scene there is not at all a good comparison to what is going on in the rest of the country, or North America. You are just starting out so many of your analagies do not apply. Its just apples and oranges. Nothing wrong with it, just different. So in that light we are coming at this from completely different angles and it may be impossible to agree on anything. Thats OK.
How YOU see the WTC is not what I asked. What is the goal of the WTC? What is the point? Also, do you have a membership card, or anything that indicates you are a member of the WTC? My club, the CPTA club and others do NOT belong to the CMA to have insurance supplied. This whole thing about supplying insurance is irrelevent to the conversation ( for our American friends) it works different here and clubs obtain really good insurance through private insurance companies at a very reasonable price.
Free membership? Free rulebook? Helpful people? Getting a say in rules etc. You cant be serious? This is what you see as a contribution? These are all things that can be done through your club. The TAC is the engine that can now do all of this as i have stated many times before. The model you seem to refer back to no longer exists. Although no one you get direction from within the WTC seems to want to be honest about it, if they were successful in the bid to obtain the FIM affiliation, do you suppose you would still have free membership???? This was dicussed many years ago and I know the answer already but just wanted you to think about it.
You would be right back where we already are. You and your club do not need anyone to hold trials in NS. That is the fact. I explained also many times how our clubs work and the entry fees how they support new riders encourage people to join etc. There is NO organization needed to help you with that. You are doing just fine. I am sure because of your geographical location and the newness of the club that you would love to have more events. Out West here we already have too many events and there is always a struggle to find free weekends to you cant use your own scenario as a case study.
Apologies to not replying quick enough for you. We supported Canadian trials by driving from Vancouver Island to Saskatchewan for the Nationals. We left Sask Sunday after the trial and I arrived home on the island at 10:15pm last night.
This appears to be a great neutral forum based out of the UK with no prejudice so shouldn't be a problem to post some facts and get things straightened out once and for all. Given that anyone who signs up for the CMA pays their $80 and identifies themselves by discipline. Do you have access to the numbers for the past few years by Province?
Going back and forth may be tiresome for some but if we could get some of this stuff figured out I think it would be a huge boost to Canadian Trials. I personally see a need for both organizations... more riders, more events, easier entry into the sport, more investment, more opportunities to advance, and most importantly more good times (if we can work together). That is what is in it for me.
BTW I have requested a name change and it is being taken under consideration. - possibly one positive change coming from these discussions .
While i continue to applaud your enthusiasm and willingness to help grow the sport. Please understand that their are certain criteria in order to be classified as an "organization".. The WTC has none of them. A website, self appointed championships, and what is if for?? What is the end goal here. YOu have asked many questions of me and what our committee's goals and intent is and I have answered open and honestly. What is the point of the WTC? This topic was raised and started to be discussed on a Canadian website, then the forum deleted as some people realized there is no point what so ever to it.
There are already more than enough events, easy entry to the sport ( that's what clubs are for) ample opportunities to advance ( The TAC is extremely motivated and a main goal). Everything is already in place as I see it. Strong clubs, who could all work together with the National Federation building a strong sport for all.
What I am sure of is anyone who reads the Canada forum is sick and tired of what appears to be you and I going back and forth endlessly about the same things that have been discussed over and over and over. Your stats from the internet are false also. Just because one trial is a CMA event does not mean the rest are assumed to be WTC sanctioned. For example again, club trials from my club and the CPTA have been deemed "WTC sanctioned". They were not, the clubs gave permission for their existing club trials to be counted towards someones series, but then you read that there were "40 riders at another successful WTC event". Its kinda rediculous.
Facts are though that people involved have slowly eliminated any source of outside feedback or comments that cannot be filtered to look favourable. Also making false or mis-leading statements with no recourse for anyone to comment about it. Welcome to the internet. Its 2016, time to move on.
Not sure how down playing anybody who puts on a non CMA event in Canada is in some way making a positive change for the sport?
I agree with Dan just let it go already.
World Trials Canada is a great Canadian trials group that openly accepts all trials riders and puts on events from coast to coast. Without them there would be a lot less events in this country. Supporting organizers who put on events all across Canada would be a true positive change for the CMA.
We are actually having an event tomorrow in the Province of New Brunswick which is starting to see a great group of new riders getting into the sport. Hopefully we will see some of them competing in the WTC championship East in the near future as the sport continues to grow here the East.
Michael I would love to have an actual example how you think that without the WTC, alot of events would not be held? You have a club, almost all events in Canada are held by clubs. Since there is no membership,no fees or anything, tell me how you think WTC is promoting events accross Canada? There is absolutely no reason why any club in Canada needs "WTC" and it does nothing.
For example. Here in BC there are two main clubs. One on Vancouver Island ( VMC) and on the mainland we have the CPTA. Neither of which need anyone to host many trials year round. There is a good group of trials guys in the interior of our province who do not have a club at all. They have expressed the idea of forming a club ( but have been told by someone within the "WTC" its stupid.
I have been always open with you and explained the model we are working on to build a strong National Federation. The reality is, I am not saying ever that every club in Canada needs to join the CMA. Some clubs find great merit in it for the insurance. But, most clubs (trials) are affiliating now to contribute. We all need to to our part and a strong National Federation is only beneficial to the riders.
There is no goal, there is no fees, no members, no nothing with the WTC, as it was formed by two people with the goal to try to get the FIM affilition for Canada. It is completly pointless and serves no purpose.
From what I can gather (from the internet) it would be best to ask Steve F. that question as it would seem he was part of the group that originally decided to setup the WTC... I agree they might have thought it through a bit better but it was before my time. It sure would be great if somebody had the minutes from some of those meetings so we could see what that group was thinking at the time...
A name change couldn't hurt...
Perhaps someone who is the director of all things WTC should actually answer some of your questions......all other dialogue on other sites in Canada have been eliminated due to seemingly unwanted questions deemed as attacks.
Micheal I just got a new phone with the motivation of taking some good pics and video while out there. Hopefully I will have enough time to do it all justice.
I would be more than happy to provide you with all of the info regarding this matter as it is not as simple as you may think. From this post, I think you may be assuming that a fraction of trials riders have split from the CMA to form their own group. This is not really the case. This group was an attempt to try and get the FIM affiliation from the CMA. It failed. The remaining people cannot even be truthful to people that this is the truth. (Yes Micheal T there is emails to prove this) . This remaing group is seemingly oblivious to what is actually going on, and operates on its own merit. Do I think it benefits trials riders? Perhaps a small group who do not actually have a formal club. ( There is one group who was actually told that forming a club was a stupid idea) As I said, as someone viewing this from where you are, it must seem very cut and dry, But, the reason I continue to post and explain the truth is that an incredible amount of rhetoric is spewed about events, members, National Championships etc that is so harmful to a small sport in a large country. Despite what you read from anyone in a non-registered entity with no members, the majority of riders in Canada belong to strong trials clubs. Most of them now choose to affiliate with the CMA and all of us work together with the Trials Advisory Committee to try and make a difference. I made the positive choice back in 2013 because I care more about the sport and not about me, so the reality is your remarks are on point but directed to the wrong person.
Honestly I don't know it can't be much because were Scottish,don't imagine the SACU are much either.
I look on them both as providers of insurance,assistance and guidance for the Trials community.
Riders do just turn up here join and ride but all trials are governed/ insured albeit in a different way by the two bodies.
Nothing to stop anyone setting up there own club here and running trials getting insurance could be interesting.
Aha then. Here is one point I am trying to make. You do pay a fee bottom line. The so called "WTC" has NO members. In some instances uses existing events run by clubs and calls them their own. Somehow thinking that their pitch of " no fees,no license etc" How can you call yourself a National sanctioning body when you have NO members?
Over here we have 2 organisations (SACU AMCA). The SACU is the main Trials organiser and the AMCA runs local club events.
When we went with the AMCA back in 09 there was a few raised eyebrows but it was mainly due to licencsing issues at that time.
Now it's all pretty cool the better AMCA riders move away as they prefer the more structured SACU trials and we pick up the raw beginners who would struggle at "regular" trials.
We use each others ground and help each other out.
More trials than ever these days and more choice which can only be good.
Just out of curiosity roughly how many riders are there in Canada? I imagine plenty folk have bikes but the logistics of competing cause difficulty.
What I'm thinking is there's not enough of you to fall out if you see what I mean.
What is the cost of joining the AMCA? We have clubs here who do all the job of holding events and do NOT need any other association to hold those events. I think the structure is completely different here. Riders just join their local club with no need for anything else.
What I don't get is the naming of WORLD Trials Canada when it has absolutely nothing to do with World Trials. Aside from the confusion with WTC being the recognised acronym for the World Trial Championship, I know there is a desire to bring the real World Championship back to Canada. How confusing is that going to be for people? You'd have a domestic series named World Trials and a real World Trials event in the same country.
This is part of the big picture Andy, yes we ( the CMA Trials Advisory Committee, and the FIM-North America Trials Committee) have several mandates, and bringing World Trials back to Canada is one of them. It should be apparent to anyone whether you agree with me or not, I am a very proud Canadian. I do not accept the attitude, nor do I agree with taking the stance that we will never be able to make this happen. Our group has worked very hard to make our domestic Championship great again. By all accounts this years Championship is a great indicator that it is working. We are also working on holding an FIM- NA Championship trial next year that would see all of the top US Riders in all classes come to Canada to compete. Our field of top riders has stagnated for decades, and the pool of young guys not only being introduced to the sport, but being able to get excited about seeing and riding with top level riders was all but extinct. Basically, the rest of the world has been progressing, and we have been staying the same.
If you ask most people who know what the SPORT of trials is, they would very much enjoy seeing a World Trial here again! We are a huge country with a relatively small trials population that is spread out. But, there is a desire for North American events, and yes hosting a World Trial again, with the target date of 2019.
It is NOT about whether you hold or ride a non CMA event. It is about supporting and helping grow a strong National Federation again, so that we not only can help groom new up and coming riders, support them properly to go ride Tdn;s and any other events over seas such as the SSDT, but to also host World Rounds again. There are strong clubs here in Canada on both coasts who have good memberships. Our club where I live has been going since the early 1900s and owns it own property for trials. These clubs operate on their own affordable insurance, either owning or with land use agreements and are very organized. They do not rely on nor do they actually require to belong to our Federation to exist or operate. But, they DO affiliate now to pitch in, hold Nationals and Provincial rounds as their way to do their part.
Not only is it confusing to have a few people declare they are also a National Federation, using an extremely confusing title, but its even more confusing to some people who are new, to make sense of what is the truth. In a huge country with small numbers of riders, it can be harmful.
Putting on events is great and not down played. A self proclaimed National sanctioning body and and non sanctioned National Championships only hurt Canada internationally and portray it in a poor light. Putting on trials and promoting the sport has abosolutely nothing to do with what you constantly deem as a wonderful organization. The same rhetoric over and over without ever being held accountable. Just because you read it on the internet or someones blog, doesnt make it actually true. Its unfortunate that you do not seem to care about any kind of legitimacy for our sport in Canada.
Thanks for your input. I agree that anyone putting an event on is a good thing. Lots in Canada do care and If you or anyone else wants to tell people you are a National sanctioning body and have your own National Championship, it does make trials In Canada look bad in the public eye as well as many other falsities that get continuously published. This is the forum for Canadian Trials. We have now a dedicatged group the same as the Natc working hard to make positive changes for the sport in our country so I am sorry if that offends you.
This year will also feature the biggest Champ class we have ever seen in Canada and thanks to all those who will be making the trip to totally nuetral grounds to decide the Canadian Championshp.
FYI for all readers outside of Canada who do not already know, this is NOT Canada's National Trials Championship. WTC is NOT any kind of National sanctioning body for Trials in Canada. It is NOT recognized by anyone outside of Canada within the world wide governing body for our sport, the FIM, or anyone else within North America who work tirelessly to promote and improve the sport. Good luck to all competitors who may be riding this event.
I am a little confused about that. I just rode a GG and the TRS back to back and there TRS clutch is light years better. The Sherco clutch pull is much harder/
We are just under two weeks away now from the 2017 Canadian Trials Championships in Bengough SK. So far, for the Championship class will compete for the #1 plate, and the title of Canadian champion, it will be the best representation of riders from accross the entire country that we have ever seen. Derek Thomas and the FTA have been hard at work preparing and the town of Bengough awaits to welcome ALL the riders.
I can tell you that it is the easiest bike to do routine maintenance on out of any bike I have had or worked on. So far everything for us has been very positive.
It'll definitely be interesting to see how a recent world level trials rider fares in hard enduro. Jarvis is still the benchmark.
Yes in Europe. Cody Webb who is a Factory Red Bull/KTM rider is at the top of the list in North America, and a former National Trials Champ in the USA. I found it quite hilarious watching the Red Bull TV version of Erzberg this year with all the comentators picks on who would win, then scanning the start lineup passing right by Cody. He finished 2nd!!!!!!
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Wtc Vs Cma - Why Not Have Both?
in Canada Trials
Posted
Bob:
Thanks for your feedback. I was fortunate enough to not only meet your friend but have some really great meanngfull dialogue. It was very important and I enjoyed it. Perhaps you should talk to him to find out the scope of the what the TAC is doing and our mandate. I find it quite interesting that anytime questions are raised about the legitimacy of WTc and its motives, its classified as bashing. As an importer of trials bikes, of course the smart thing for you to do is associate with both entities. Thats business. The TAC is about the Sport, in Canada.
Feedback is always good, but doesnt offer the same benefits of actually doing something.