Tip #1 - NO THROTTLE when you're starting it. It won't fire the plug or the injector if it sees the throttle open. This is the ECU's way of keeping the bike from starting if the throttle happens to be jammed open somehow (and another important reason, see tip #2).
Tip #2 - If it won't start, it's "flooded". Open the throttle all the way, kick it once or twice. Because it won't fire or squirt (see tip #1), This will clear the combustion chamber and ready things for the next start. Also figure it may charge the capacitor for the next start but don't know if the cap actually stores any energy, or if it just smooths the power pulses from the generator so the computer is happier.
Last, but not least, if it stops working it's usually the stator, I think, I have heard of more than one going bad.
The only info I could find says (thanks to google translate):
Montesa Honda prepares the imminent launch of a completely renovated 2014 Montesa Cota 4RT, announcing that he will be at a highly competitive price.
In Trialworld we talked about the possibility of this release within this article.
It is expected that economic completing this edition, is released later this year another edition with more revolutionary changes. Of the latter, however, no official informatio
So, make of that what you will. From the shady picture you can make out new "bodywork" and the relationship of the kickstart to the tank/fender unit would indicate the package has made a bit more compact. Also would appear the silencer had been reconfigured, there are minor changes to the forks but they still look like showas. AND I'm going to go out on a limb and predict an entirely new frame - judging from what I can see in the picture, comparing the head tube to the old unit. Looks like the head tub might be a touch shorter, etc. Be interesting to see if the twin-plug ignition makes it to the production model or if that's a "works" thing.
The "highly competitive price" comment is encouraging. personally I'm hoping Honda is stepping up to the plate and swinging hard at this - modern design and manufacturing techniques mean it's never been cheaper to make stuff, and if head office in Japan put their minds to it perhaps they can keep the price down far enough to attract a whole bunch of riders to the sport.... surely this dovetails with the rules lobbying that's been going on in some way.
Fun to speculate.... and I've been doing it for years now, literally. Finally the wait is over for a new 4RT. Now if a guy could only get his hands on one in the US......
I subscribe, I think it's worth it, especially if you have an off-season you need to get through. I initially subscribed because they actually broadcasted the indoor events LIVE. But they stopped doing that. The subscriber videos for the WTC are usually 50 minutes long, and pretty good.
You can also access archives back to something like 1990.
Well, nice to meet you Mr Nelson. Hope you are not totally snowed in.!
Actually, I think you have me confused with Jon Stoodly as he usually does that tech inspection stuff. He is the old mean guy! I am the younger nice guy! (I think he will find this!)
On honing something that small, yes I suppose it may be nice to have a small specialty hone the proper size. However, thoughts do come to mind here.
Not having seen one first hand, I have no idea just how much scuffing you may find there, yet if something that small is badly scored or pitted, it may be ruined to begin with, so logic dictates only minor scoring as a repairable condition.
This being the case, I may opt to simply do soomething like glue and wrap a small wooden dowl with crocus cloth then spin it in the electric drill or something to clean her up.
Far as I can tell, one should be able to run the DOT 5 without issue, long as everything is cleaned and flushed from the old stuff. Not sure why you would have swelling problems before with proper seals?
Cheers,
MC
I do have you confused, he is "JSETRIALS" on here, isn't he. Sorry about that!
I am optimistic that I can "save" the cylinder bores - they are scored only slightly (more like scuffed a bit) and I would leave them alone if I hadn't found the hones online for reasonable cost. They should be here next week.
As for the o-ring swelling on the last set of seals, I am a bit perplexed by this too. I may have used brake-kleen (brand name) brake cleaner on the parts, which I have since found will dissolve many things including gas gas vinyl graphics. Either that or they had a bad batch of o-rings that were not brake-fluid compatible? Seems a stretch I know, but I do know I have a swollen o-ring on the brake side and did not do anything out of the ordinary.
As a word of caution Dot 5 brake Fluid is Silicon based it dosen't mix with either Dot 4 (Glycol based) or Mineral oil and I've no idea if the rubber seals on the piston or your slave cylinder are compatible with it, I guess you'll just have to try it on one of your old seal kits. If you do swap it make sure to flush all the old oil out by disassembling and cleaning all parts with isopropyl alcohol.
Hi Chris, Thanks for your replies!
As far as I can tell the Silicone Fluid should be compatible with any and all seals, o-rings, etc., if they were originally mineral oil compatible or not, so that's my "safe" option. But no doubt will require a thorough cleaning beforehand, as I have heard some stories about sludge buildup, etc.
The other option, I suppose, is to find out if the formula seals in the new kit for the clutch would be mineral oil compatible. Common sense would tell me they aren't, since there seems to be different seals for brake fluid components and mineral oil components.
Good info for some there Jonny! Thankfully, my "12 has the AJP installed, which is fine for me, yet others may need this.
I am amazed at the number of components in the system, yet if it works, it works, some seem to like it !
I thought you were Jono English, guess not.
Are you east or west?
Cheers for your work there!
MC
Not Mr. English, although that's a good guess, and we are good friends. I am actually right in the middle, neither east or west - Thunder Bay, Ontario - 3 hours directly above Duluth,, MN. Pretty lonely for a trials rider up here..... you and I have met a few times in tech (Thanks for volunteering!) My last name is Nelson.
Hopefully the poking around I've done will help a few people. I'm not sure how many bikes were delivered with the Formula units - it can't be very many. Which is too bad, they really are excellent when they are in top form. And you are right the number of components is astounding! Some of them are quite intricate, but they really should be nice when updated.
Any advice on honing? I ordered 320 grit Alum. Oxide flex-hones because that's what I could find to fit the 10 and 9.5mm bores. Also, I am going to have to switch to DOT5 to ensure that all the orings and seals on the clutch side get along, and also guarantee the brake side doesn't swell as it did before.
Great post!!!! Thank you! Heard anything on the rear?
The rear brake seems comparable between my '11 and '12 bikes, although like many I had trouble with the rear M/C seals going after a few days of riding. I am planning to disassemble the rear completely to inspect, clean, and hone the Master Cylinder bore.
Functionally speaking I don't think there is any difference between the AJP caliper and the formula caliper on the rear.
Also of note is the availability of the Jitsie "Race" Brake pads - I've ordered a set for both my bikes, as I am fairly certain through all my horsing around I managed to contaminate the pads, and I have heard that they are a good upgrade to the originals - we shall see... and I will report my findings.
Not often I venture into the Sherco forum but thought I would post a link to a post I created in the Gasser forum - it has info, pictures, part numbers, etc. (please confirm part numbers for your cyclinder sizes before ordering!) and detailed explanations about the formula brakes on 2012 models - not universally liked in 2012, but significantly improved for 2013.
Just thought I’d share with everyone who cares, the continuing saga of my 2012 Gas Gas with the Formula brakes. I detailed some of my issues with these brakes here:
Although I was able to solve a few things as I documented in that thread, there are still a few issues with these brakes that keep them from being great.
The first and foremost thing is the side loading of the master cylinder piston when you pull the lever. When everything is clean and lubed and flushed this doesn’t present much of a problem, but stuff the levers in the dirt a few times, or get too many hours on them without flushing them, and the feel at the lever goes off in a big way. If you manage to get them dirty enough, when you apply the brakes hard enough, they will actually stick then let go, and make cracking sort of noises! Not really what you want in a brake setup.
So as I was waiting for the long, cold, Canadian winter to come to an end, aimlessly surfing the net, I stumble across the fact that Formula has upgraded the brakes as installed on the 2013 Sherco. Here is a quote from their marketing info:
“The ST2013 models are equipped with the new Formula brake kit that is the result of a joint effort by the technical departments of both Sherco and Formula.
The result is a new unit that includes new internal parts, piston, rod and ball joint (link) that have been perfected to permit smooth movement of the lever in any position, maintaining the pressure and force necessary for effective brake operation. This new set is the most advanced and evolved ever to be installed on a trials bike, it also incorporates an adjustable neutral position that allows the rider to adjust the lever position to suit their individual requirements. The actual lever has an ergonomic geometry that fits perfectly in your hand.”
Apparently Josep Paxau had a hand in the re-design of the brake/clutch master cylinders, and I noticed at Sheffield Albert Cabestany was using the Formula Brake (but looked to be using an AJP Clutch). Pictures on the Sherco website showed the changes to the units, so I started to become interested in this…..
Fingers crossed, I went and downloaded the parts manuals from the Sherco website, and sure enough there they were, parts with the designation “13”. Then I checked the 2012 Manual and Sherco is offerring an uprade kit! This encouraged me, knowing that the upgrades would be “bolt-on”.
With the help of Ryan Young (very helpful as always) and my all time favorite Trials Supplier Stuart Preston at Jack’s Cycles, I was able to determine that yes, these parts exist, and are in stock and available.
So, the Sherco parts required to upgrade a Gas Gas are:
(x2) 4647 – Lever complete 13
(x2) 4649 – Bolt
(x1) 4652 – 9.5mm kit (for clutch) NOT MINERAL OIL COMPATIBLE, USE SILICONE DOT5 Fluid)
(x1) 4648 – 10mm kit
These are all 2013 Sherco parts. The 2012 Sherco used (I think) a 9mm clutch M/C and a 9.5mm Brake, so the parts required for those are slightly different (but available). The complete setup will be in the neighborhood of $225.00(US).
So I went ahead and ordered these parts from Stu, they were drop shipped by Ryan and I had them in a few days.
I am really pleased with what I see. They have fixed every design flaw that I uncovered last season:
- The side loading imparted on the piston by the lever “sliding” on the end of the piston, causing erratic feel: the new unit has an additional linkage and plunger which transfers force far down to the exact geometric middle of the piston so it will not cock in the bore even when there is side loading, much reduced as well by this configuration.
- Brake fluid becoming dirty and contaminated within a few hours: the new design (see above) will reduce side loading and friction, but also the new pistons are coated unlike the raw aluminum of the old parts.
- Scoring of the master cylinder bodies (mine are) - The new design should eliminate this possibility. (I’ve ordered a 10mm and 9.5mm flex-hone to polish mine up).
- The thumbwheel adjuster becoming “unclocked” from the detent it is supposed to line up with, resulting in an instantaneous change to the biting point (not good at any time much less when you’re in a section!): The thumbwheel now has a spring and ball detent arrangement, very ingenious, and allows ¼ turn adjustment to the neutral lever position as opposed to the ½ turn resolution of the previous setup.
- Retractable lever, retracting, when it shouldn’t – the return spring on the old setup was far too weak, and very occasionally, when you went to put your finger on it, it was not there. – the new unit has a stiffer spring.
- Too much play between lever and plunger – although not terrible, there was in my opinion just slightly too much clearance here causing play in the lever – the new units have adjustment so this can be dialled completely.
- O-ring on brake side swollen – I’ve been noticing the brake would often be a bit sticky after the bike sat for a few days. Would usually remedy itself after a few applications but was surprised to find that the O-ring on the brake master was swollen to nearly twice its original size. As a precaution I am going to clean out and flush both the clutch and brake sides with dot 5 and use it, just to avoid this possibility in the future. This will also ensure compatibility with the “mineral oil only” Gas Gas clutch since I think Sherco uses Brake fluid in the clutch.
- Ridiculous pricing on spares via Gas Gas - I paid $55.00 for a spare lever (just the blade!!) from Gas Gas UK. (the US parts importer did not seem interested in selling me one but the most recent price I heard for a lever from another well known parts supplier in the US was $85.00. I don't know what they are smoking in the mountains of Northern California but it must be expensive). If you buy a 2013 style lever from a Sherco supplier you shouldn't expect to pay more than $49.00 - and this will include the entire lever assembly, actually 8 parts in one.
So now on to a few pictures....
I’ve had a chance to confirm that the parts will fit in the 2012 master cylinder bodies, and from an engineering standpoint are a huge improvement over the old stuff. Of course it will be a few months before I can test them myself, but hopefully someone can provide some feedback before then – I have heard a few comments that the 2013 Brakes on the Sherco’s are a big improvement over the previous year, so these updates should make a similar improvement to the 2012 Gasser. In fact, I would agree with the Sherco marketing claim that these are the most advanced brakes ever fitted to a Trials bike – they certainly are!! The new parts are very nicely done.
Many thanks to Stu at Jack's Cycle for working with me on this - he is a dealer for Beta, Sherco, and Gas Gas, so has access to these parts and I'm sure would help in any way possible.
I've already been chatting about this with Stu - even though he's 2000 miles from me he's my favorite source for info and parts. When nobody else seemed interested he went out of his way to help me out, and got the stiffer spring for me.
I thought I'd get a broader idea from the forums here on the condition of my shock - before I go to the trouble of sending it back I want to be sure its "gone" but seems like it might be.
I'm suspecting an issue with the rear shock on my '12 "Race" with the Reiger shock - it seems to have insufficient damping when compared to the Ohlins on my '11 Race. I still have both bikes and when I ride them back to back with the same preload settings and spring rates (75n/mm on each) the Reiger shock just doesn't seem able to calm the rear of the bike down - even at full damping setting. There is a noticeable difference, the '11 is much, much more rideable, with better rear grip over rough sections.
Can anyone tell me how much resistance there should be to compressing the shock with the spring removed? It is easily compressible by hand, and the first 3/4" or so seems to have zero damping and then the damping "picks up". (This with the adjuster at minimum).
The damping becomes much stiffer with the damping set to near max, but if I compress it (easy enough to do by hand) it takes nearly a minute to extend itself.
Non issue? The biggest set of rule changes the sport has ever seen is coming. This is more than just No Stop........ Longer loops, bigger gas tanks, weight limits, cc limits and more. Having these discussions is a good thing.
Exactly.... the press release from the FIM warns of major changes to come, but gives no other hints. You would think they'd want to publish these rules to give manufacturers a chance to conform.
Much thanks to Martin for providing some insight here.
Any idea what the point of longer loops would be? I would have expected the opposite. Weight limits and cc limits make sense....... especially if you happen to be a manufacturer that favors four stroke power in a 250cc package......
Some really good discussion, and I think I am starting to understand.... Martin (and others) makes some really good points. Look forward to hearing (and learning) more.
PS - Steve, I am in Thunder Bay, ON - the last one standing in our community.... the infamous McLuckie (Martin will know him!) is still around but he hasn't ridden in 3 or 4 years, his son and a few others have moved away. I ride in Minnesota club events, but most of the time it is me, myself, and I, practicing at home.
I have noticed the popularity of the clubman line. Even though the entry numbers are comparable, there is probably something to be learned from that. Pro has become Super-pro, Expert is where pro used to be, etc???
It will be interesting to see what else the FIM comes up with, and the specific wording of the rule? That could and will make all the difference and so far nobody knows that (Including, I gather, Toni Bou, judging from an interview I read somewhere.).
All this talk about no-stop vs stop 'n hop, got me thinking.,,,
I'm relatively new to trials, have only been riding 5 years, but I am thoroughly addicted to it... I've been travelling around to whatever national (US) events I can get to, and I always have a ball. I love the community, have made lots of great friends, and the competition is friendly and supportive.
I come from a car racing background. I was a winner. Consequently people didn't like me until they bothered to get to know me. I was labelled a cheater, etc. - same old story. It was technically challenging and I still enjoy racing when I can but it's no longer my "life". Trials is.
So I don't really have a historic perspective, I have never known anyone other than Pat or Cody as champion! Which leads me to wonder, is Trials really broken? Does it need saving?
I checked the national results for 1999 in the US - there were 238 different riders in the various classes, in 11 rounds.. In 2012, there were 221 riders for 10 rounds. ....During a recession.
I have no idea about bike sales, but it seems to me there are bikes being sold. Maybe not in great numbers, but you can buy: Gas Gas, Sherco, Beta, Scorpa, Ossa, Jtg, that seems pretty vibrant.
Lucky us!
Please discuss..... does Trials need saving? From what?
Perhaps under the No Stop Rule, lines like these would no longer seem reasonable....so hopefully would not be sections.
Throw in a few of those cambers and those boys wouldn't need their footpegs. (Nice ride though)
Yeah nice ride, and a wild section but if you told him to ride it no-stop he would try. And so would the rest of the Pros, and 2 or 3 of them would get through it clean. That's where I fail to see what is going to change, really. It's going to be "almost-stop" downhill from the bigger steps, but a modern bike with a good rider will still go up stuff just as big, just with less setup time and no way to recover from mistakes. Hmm..... maybe THAT's the point? But they will still put the trigger ifr they've had time to aim or not.
But isnt this the sort of "section" that the no stop rule is trying to eliminate anyway? The reason there is all this "controversy" is because course setters dont seem to be able to grasp the simple concept that riding no stop requires different sections and a different skill set to riding stop allowed. If they bothered to set a trial correctly for no stop instead of being so tunnel visioned in the type of sections they lay out then it would be far safer and still take marks off riders.
It not about my gonads are bigger than your gonads it's about balance control and finesse. Trials was and can be such a beautiful sport. Poetry in motion, man and machine in perfect harmony not bung it in 3rd, scream the nuts off it and dump the clutch.
Ban the minders as well they only encourage stupid behaviour. If someone is prat enough to try "stuff" then thats their look out but not within the section markers.
I keep hearing that "we have to take marks off them" well i agree you do have to have a winner but i see this at every trial if you lay a section out correctly for no stop the bouncing berk with the on off switch for a throttle has a 3 or a 5 while the guy with "control" , remember that one, rides through for a seemingly effortless clean. Again poetry in motion.
You did say safety was your FIRST priority so why include ANY sections like this ?
I did think of the zip-ties and tried it between loops thinking I wouldn't have to adjust the levers but ended up tweaking a lever and then I wasn't able to adjust it!
Another pro-tip on the Formula stuff for those who are interested - the thumbwheel type adjuster on the levers is a little "loose" and will actually turn off the detent and drastically change the clutch and/or front brake biting point, with no warning. I am pretty sure I took a few points (and at least one crash) in CO from this, by the end of the day Sunday I developed the habit of checking both levers before entering a section.
So, here is the tip (stolen from whoever thought to do it on Pat Smage's bike) - wrap the adjuster threads with a few turns of teflon tape, just enough to provide a bit of resistance to turning so the slot on the adjuster stays lined up with the lever.
Yeah I was thinking that too but we need to get him hooked first!!
PS - Scott, we will be riding/setting sections at the OHV park in Gilbert through the month of July, so I will be sure to let you know when. In the meantime check the schedule there is a one-day event in July in Theilman, MN.
New Txt Range For 2014
in Gas Gas
Posted
No more mag cases on any gassers?