Pre 65 Bultaco M10

[twinshock]

Somethings wrong there Sparks2, I have the copy of the MCN for Wednesday December 1st 1965 and he rode in the Severn Valley Trial after the Experts that year, you can't have an MCN dated Dec 2nd 1965 as well, Do you mean 1964 ?

Cheers

[sparks2]

Sorry

My mistake. My post should have read Motor Cycle News dated 2nd December 1964.

Even I must be getting confused by this 1964, no 1965, no 1964 etc etc debate.

Now corrected.

Regards

Sparks2

Edited March 22, 2010 by sparks2

[bultacosteve]

I have a photocopy of the Bultaco factory production list. It says that 1275 Model 10 Sherpa t's were made with production beginning in December 1964 and ending in April 67. This list cannot be considered gospel truth but none the less it is on offical company letter head and was published by Cemoto. I can't verify for certain that their record keeping was perfect but according to Cemoto that is when production began and ended. I have provided a list of total production numbers for all model Sherpa T's. Don't consider this the correct amount built. I personally own 2 models that are well above the serial number range as printed. I know that the Spanish government kept track of what it was exporting under Franco's rule . If your bike has a serial number higher than what I have listed then you can be sure that that many bikes were built.

here are the rest of the sherpa production numbers. I left out the 74. 125 and 175 cc sherpa's I do have numbers for them too. If someone wants to know just contact me. Please note that in some cases the production dates overlap. This isn't surprising as Bultaco would have built bikes until all parts for that model were exhausted even though production had already started on the next model. This was common practice for them. After posting this I found that it wasn't as I had typed it out. so it goes model number then the total production for that model and then the years or year it started and ended production

Model production total Years produced

M10 1275 Dec 64 Apr 67

M27 700 July 67 May 68

M49 4706 Nov 68 Apr 71

M80 2932 Apr 71 Apr 72

M91 1796 Sept 72 ????

M92 4578 Feb 72 Sept 73

M124 740 Feb 74 ????

M125 2108 Jan 75 ????

M133 13 (factory bikes rathmell likely rode one of these) Apr 74

M150 599 Oct 74

M151 580 (this is wrong as I have serial 850) Oct 74 Feb 75

M158 1641 July 75 ???

M159 500 (again this is wrong as mine is in the 4000 range) Apr 75 July 76

M182 500 May 76 ????

M183 790 Apr 76

M190 1300 Oct 76 feb 77

M191 1451 oct 76 ??????

M198 1770 July 77

M198A 2050 Nov 78

M198B 270 Sept 81

M199 5960 May 77

M199A 6915 Oct 78

M199B 1778 May 81

To clarify the M199 series. When Bultaco started production of the M199A they didn't give it a new model number rather they just continued with the serial number but added an A after the number on the bike. So the very 1st M199A had serial number 5961. The very 1st M199B had serial number 12876 or within 1 or 2 numbers of that. Total production of all M199 series bikes was 14653.

Steve

Edited March 23, 2010 by BultacoSteve

[totalshell]

from the archives..

i have sets of old mags and i've given them a good coat of looking at.. i havent evry magazine from every week / month but enough to give some light to the question.. was the m10 available for sale before dec31st 1964?

Motorcycle dated 5th november 1964

''after much speculation it is now certain that the British experts on nov 28th will be the last occasion we will have the chance of seeing Sammy Miller in action on his featherweight 500 Ariel. From December 1 he will be part of the rickman metisse concern and will be busy on development of the Bultaco trials machine. his bike is expected to arrive in this country in a couple of weeks.

from the same issue in an article headed '' Butaco Metisse listed'' the last two paragraphs are...

'' ... Rickmans are now the British concessionaries for Bultaco machines, they will be importing the 124cc TSS and the 196 cc Metralla.., A trials two-fifty, which sammy miller has assisted in developing will be announced in the near future''

From Motorcycle sport dated febuary 1965 but available in the shops jan 18th 1965..

in all the event reports and an article on road trials and two articles on the dominance of cubs, bultaco is mentioned three times but each is linked as sammy miller's bultaco

the clearest evidence is that the earliest advertisment i can find is in the same issue of motorcycle sport (dated feb 65 but available on jan 18th)

for earliest delivery

order now

bsa victor

[twinshock]

The website in Australia is

www.trials.com.au

Have a look at the bike in question in Forums - Twinshock and Classic - Pre 65 Bultaco M10,,,,, 2nd page

Its also pictured on the home page

Cheers

[totalshell]

digging furtehr into the archive i have come across a copy of the motorcycle dated 7 january 1965

it includes reports of the vic brittan trail and three others.

in all the reports and lists of results the word bultaco is mentioned twice once under a photo of sam ''on the little bultaco'' and once beside his name in the results. no one else rode a bultaco in any of the trials reprted that week.

in the same issue in the classified ads Comerfords have two entries.

the first under 'Bultaco'

Come to comerfords for the fantastic bultaco trials, ditributors for london and the SE. Orders accepted now for delivery early january.

then under 'trials and scrambles'

Come to Comerfords, new 1965 models in stock. greeves tfs

[woody]

The definitive answer from the man himself.

Asked Sam at today's trial and he confirmed that he began developing the Sherpa T in November 1964 and that it did not go into production until 1965. So there you have it, the Sherpa T was not available in 1964, there was just Sam's factory bike.

I told him why I was asking and he was not at all impressed that a Sherpa T had been allowed to compete in a Pre65 class....

[old trials fanatic]

The definitive answer from the man himself.

Asked Sam at today's trial and he confirmed that he began developing the Sherpa T in November 1964 and that it did not go into production until 1965. So there you have it, the Sherpa T was not available in 1964, there was just Sam's factory bike.

I told him why I was asking and he was not at all impressed that a Sherpa T had been allowed to compete in a Pre65 class....

Must admit Dave i never seem to understand why so many people have a problem with understanding the term "pre65" ?

1965 began at the stroke of midnight on 31st December 1964 simple as that.

Why do so many seem to think that because their bike was made in 1965 it should be eligable for pre 65 is beyond me. The arguement about stuff made this year and being used is another minefield.

The only reason i can see and i know i'm cynical is the same mindset that makes people want to build a twinshock out of an air cooled mono.

YOURE LOOKING FOR AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE AND THATS CHEATING !!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's always somebody trying to argue theirs is a "special case" but they can never substantiate it.

You just know this will run on and on with people argueing their bike somehow fell through a hole in time and space and by coincidence reappeared at 11.59 pm on December 31st 1964.

Had the same conversation with somebody the other week about Sprites

No connection but if you look at the Dales Classic website home page dalesclassic.wordpress.com at the top are photos of a 1963 Sprite ??? and a 1962 BSA Bantam clearly showing a D14/4 motor. Obviously both hush hush pre production works development bikes !

Edited March 29, 2010 by Old trials fanatic

[wayne_weedon]

It is very amusing that we are debating this issue at all!

Same probably applies to a lot of the cubs out there? Were the side points models pre65?

Now I wonder though! if one were to build a pre65 bike based on a pre65 Bultaco (Not M10) would it ever been deemed eligible?

I'd personally find a Sherpa N or Early Mercurio based bike far more interesting than a Bantam for example.

Wayne....

Edited March 29, 2010 by wayne_weedon

[woody]

Building a Pre65 Bultaco, based on a Sherpa N, has been done and the bike was ridden in the Pre65 Scottish a few years ago (last time I rode it which was 2006 I think)

As usual, later componenets were used and the engine was a 5 speed which didn't arrive until '68. So it wasn't a Sherpa N.

Same as the Montesa Impala in the same event - it looked like an Impala model (I think, bit sketchy on these) but had a later Cota engine, again '68 at the earliest.

Neither bike was what it was supposed to be.

[wayne_weedon]

Neither bike was what it was supposed to be.

Are many at all ? Back full circle to the perpetual issue haha!

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Hi Roger,

There you have it then if Sam said not until 65, surely this is enough to stop the Bulto from competing in the championship this year. But Chris is right about the Carb on your Cub The jap carbs were available before 65. 61-62 I had my hands on one. Seems like your rule books in Aus need changing ,like ours here.

Regards Charlie.

[wayne_weedon]

I just read the thread over on the forum mentioned above. All I can say is amazing! Clutching at straws are not the right words.

Even Woody's quote of Sam's comments get slated.

Wayne....

Edited March 30, 2010 by wayne_weedon

[old trials fanatic]

I just read the thread over on the forum mentioned above. All I can say is amazing! Clutching at straws are not the right words.

Even Woody's quote of Sam's comments get slated.

Wayne....

Just looked myself

And i thought i had problems with people slagging me off

Funny how some people spit their dummy when theyre found out.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Old trials fanatic

[wayne_weedon]

Spot the one about "maybe the uk didn't have M10's in 64 was because they'd sold them all elsewhere"! Not quoted verbatim of course, but that seemed to be the jist of it.

Seems the sensible and more factual comments are glossed over. Black is White it seems.

What seems most ridiculous is the damage was done in the first place.

Oh well back to my pre65 project!

Wayne....