outlaw dave Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Like everybody else I have been watching the Indoor Championship and also the Team Reports. - What a lot of you no what ! - Lets face it - Honda who own Montesa, made the decision to go with 4 strokes. - It was their choice to do that. - They can call it what they they want - a brave new move or whatever. - The fact remains that when you enter any competition you read the regulations and enter your best. While I have the greatest respect for Dougie Lampkin, I think it's time to recognise that we have a changing of the guard - especially at the Indoor venues. - Look at the performance by young Toni Bou - I also happen to think that 2 strokes will be around for a long time. It wasn't that long ago that Honda tried to compete with the 2 strokes in road racing - they eventually quit and built one. - not that anyone doubts the sheer brilliance of the Japanese. But having worked for one of those so called "Four Great Powers" - I think it's time to cheer the underdogs - the teams at Gas Gas and Sherco and Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I think people are still being too quick to judge this bike. The indoor series is not the place to do that. It's a show, like a circus. They contain virtually the same sections (or close variants) whatever the event and the only difficulty the 4RT is having at the moment is the big splat sections. But who in club or centre trials is going to have to worry about those? On the more technical stuff Doug has more than matched the others on occassion and he is, as usual, riding his nuts off trying to get a win. It may happen, maybe not, and I really feel for him as the frustration must be crippling. However, indoors bear no resemblance to real trials. Ultimately what does the outcome of the inddor matter - apart from to a rider as they like to win everthing they enter. Outdoors is what really matters and by the time they come around the 4RT and the skill of its riders may be just as competitve as the others. LeJeune won 3 titles on a four stroke in the 80s against what should have been lighter and more competitive 2 strokes and both he and Saunders came within a whisker of doing it again on the RTL. No reason why history shouldn't repeat. Outdoors is not about leaping from one pallet to another, over and over and over and over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 as it is physically impossible to design and build a 4 stroke motor, that will equal a 2 stroke in all areas, this is perhaps not that surprising! The above statement might be a bit over the top! Honda seem to think, and I suspect they know a lot more about engine sesign than any of the 'experts' in an online discussion board that a 4 stroke can again be competetive. Taking trials alone look at how well Honda did in the 1980's, World Champions, British Champions - you name it they did it you seem to forget that all those bikes were FOUR STROKES. Just think what the bikes would have been like if they had continued to develop the RTL? As for Motocross & Enduros - go back to 1999 when Yamaha took out the first modern Jap 4 stroke MX bike this revolutionalised the sports - if it didnt equal the 2 strokes then why are most riders buying 4 strokes now? - you can still buy 2 strokes in the UK but these are few and far between at local & national levels.of competition. Hopefully once the real World Championship ie outdoors starts we will see a bit better how the new 4 strokes get on - lets face it how many of us rid up 10 foot high piles of pallets & oversized truck tyres on a normalk trial - not a lot! Until then lets not judge things too strongly or make statements which we cannot back up with fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I must admit, I was starting to think that maybe Dougie was reaching the end of his career a while ago. However, his recent performances in the indoor championship (especially in St Petersburg which was nothing shot of heroic considering he was riding the standard bike), the way that he's totally dominating the other HRC-Montesa riders at the moment and most recently the interview in DBR magazine (UK) have convinced me that he's as driven to win as ever. In that interview, Dougie seems surprisingly philosophical about their current bike problems, an attitude that becomes completely understandable when he talks about the future of the sport. He makes the point that by the time the 4-stroke rule comes into force, Honda will have at least 12 months head start on the other manufacturers. They may be looking slightly silly now, but can we expect to see Raga and the others struggling in a similar way at some point? Perhaps not, since Montesa seem to have made the decision to do all of their testing and development in the public eye while little doubt that GasGas and Beta are already testing 4-stroke prototypes in secret so that when they make their public debut they'll be as competitive as possible. But there's also the required adjustments to riding style to take into account and the fact that Raga seems to have a similar "rev happy" style to Fujinami suggests to me that if Dougie can get through the forthcoming "transitional" outdoor season, there's a distinct possibility that we'll enter a new era of Lampkin domination. All of this depends on the FIM not reversing the 4-stroke ruling for whatever reason but even if they do (and HRC don't decide to take their ball home as a consequence), I think it's way too early to write off the 4-strokes and more specifically, Dougie Lampkin just yet. Just my opinion, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) The reason 4 stroke bikes are popular once again, has more to do with the "greenwash" environmental policys of the US, which adversely impact 2 stroke machines, rather than the fact that 4 strokes are better in any way than 2 strokes. Not in the UK As for US environmental policies they avoid the Kyoto Protocol but decide to ban 2 strokes - they might have got one thing right ? Take what happened with MX. Have a look at a local MX meeting, 4 or 5 years ago 2strokes were more common than 4 strokes by 4 or 5 to one. Now the ratio has reversed, this has nothing to do with the USA (except the manufacturers have had to develop bikes for the USA!). The vast majority of bikes sold up here are 4 strokes now, be it KTM, Yam or Honda or even some of the smaller manufacturers. 4 or 5 years ago Yam and Honda 2 strokes rulled the roost with only a few individuals trying 4 strokes, or alternative makes. Once people saw the reliability was there & once they tried a 4stroke bike they were hooked and made the change over. There are a few guys who changed back to 2 strokes after finding 4 strokes harder to get on with. It will be interesting to see how trials goes over the next few years - there certainly seems to be a lot of guys waiting until any 'teething troubles' are ironed out of the Honda(Montesa) before they decide to try one. Possibly next year will see an influx of a much larger number of 4RT's! Edited February 21, 2005 by g4321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliechitlins Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 However, indoors bear no resemblance to real trials. And trials, as the pros ride it, bears no resemblance to the sport most of us ride. As for a US ban on 2-strokes, I think they'll be legal in "competition machines" for a long time to come. The first ones to go will likely be watercraft, as they put raw gas and oil into small bodies of water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliechitlins Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 In terms of todays bikes, its perhaps a good idea to actually try a 4 stroke bike, and see if you enjoy riding it No fun. I like rumors and conjecture better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I only wish we could see as much passion put in to helping the good ladies and gents out there who put on trials, that we see put in to what color bike some bugger rides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramer Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Like everybody else I have been watching the Indoor Championship and also the Team Reports. - What a lot of you no what ! - Lets face it - Honda who own Montesa, made the decision to go with 4 strokes. - It was their choice to do that. - They can call it what they they want - a brave new move or whatever. - The fact remains that when you enter any competition you read the regulations and enter your best.While I have the greatest respect for Dougie Lampkin, I think it's time to recognise that we have a changing of the guard - especially at the Indoor venues. - Look at the performance by young Toni Bou - I also happen to think that 2 strokes will be around for a long time. It wasn't that long ago that Honda tried to compete with the 2 strokes in road racing - they eventually quit and built one. - not that anyone doubts the sheer brilliance of the Japanese. But having worked for one of those so called "Four Great Powers" - I think it's time to cheer the underdogs - the teams at Gas Gas and Sherco and Beta. Mr Outlaw Dave, It sure seems like some people want to see the four stroke fail. Why is that? I don't get it. I like all trials bikes, 2T and 4T, especially the new stuff. I thinks it way cool when a factory comes out with a new model. It is part of the fun of being a trials rider. Sherco has a new 4T and Scorpa is going to come out with a new 250 four stroke. I don't see how this is a bad thing. Or should we hate the Scorpa because it is Japanese and love the "underdog" Sherco because it is French/Spanish? What did the Japanese do to you to make you so bitter? Kramer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw dave Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Kramer - You are missing the point - ( like a few other people) - Let me explain once again. You don't take a donkey to a horse race and expect to win. You take the very best you can breed ( or build) Nobody, as I said doubts the engineering brilliance of the Japananese but the big money is starting to spoil the sport of Trials - and thats just my opinion. - Especially at the World level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trials lad Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 should we hate the Scorpa because it is Japanese Aint scorpa french? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramer Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 (edited) should we hate the Scorpa because it is Japanese Aint scorpa french? You are right T lad. I wanted to say French with Japanese motors. Dave, I think I see your point. You think that the 4RT is a donkey and they should have stayed with the 2 stroke. Sherco too? Scorpa too? As for big money, are you proposing a no-growth policy? Keep trials from getting too big. Keep it for the club riders, small two stroke companies. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is that it? Gas Gas and Sherco are growing rapidly. Do we ask them to get out soon or pull back? Do we ask the factories and teams to put less into it and try and keep it small? I don't mean to be a pain in the ass but I don't see how you can stop a company/team from trying to grow and win. or why you would want to. K Edited March 18, 2005 by kramer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 You beat me to it there bs, I'd like to say great minds think alike but doubt it could be further from the truth. Mike Rapley is really pleased with his 4rt and so he should be its a good bike, my mate munch is over the moon too, has it improved their results? Probably. Martin wilmore had one of the first and has sold it already as he just couldn't get on with it despite trying very hard apparently, and he has had alot of fourstroke experience. It is really a horses for courses nad would it be better for me, guess we will never know as I'm happy with my Sherco. Are honda bothered, I too doubt it unless the figures don't start to add up then it might end up like the TLR of the 80's. What bothers me is that if, and its a big if, the WTC bike is not up to the job where does Dougie go from here? It would be a real shame if Dougie or Fuji couldn't win because the bike wasn't good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Spooky I'm posting before the time before,sort of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 It seems surprising that there are these constant comparisions being drawn between 2 and 4 strokes! Of course there are constant comparisons. It's the biggest obvious split in modern trials. Should we maybe not bother comparing the two???? the only difficulty the 4RT is having at the moment is the big splat sections. Not really true - watched FujiGas trying to get up a steep incline. On every hop the power was very obviously lacking. It's lacking torque. The marketing graphs show it to a certain extent, but probably hide the dive in performance when the bike gets hot???? Possible reply - yeah but your average clubman doesn't do this sort of thing. Well your average clubman is almost twice the weight of Fuji, and he does want torque in abundance, because unlike the pro's he probably missed the point where he should have started applying the revs. Have a look at a local MX meeting, 4 or 5 years ago 2strokes were more common than 4 strokes by 4 or 5 to one. Now the ratio has reversed If they were on an even playing field would it be a similar story. 4 stroke 250 against 2 stroke 250. Didn't the rules beat the 2 strokes as opposed to the 4 strokes beating the 2 strokes. I don't see how you can stop a company/team from trying to grow and win. or why you would want to As great as Trials Central is, do you think that a few people laying down their opinion on here is likely to bring Honda to their knees. I do feel sorry for them. If it was a one man band I could imagine the bloke would be a bit disheartened. Honda will take anything like this and build on it. Maybe if we all keep quiet and let them think they've built a world beater they won't bother improving it? Don't think so. There, I've just pi*sed everyone off. Dabster do you fancy a pint? If you're going to reply, do it quickly, just opening the second bottle of red - was it obvious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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