charlie prescott Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Guy’s I have just had this idea passed onto me and I think it could work.} It’s very very easy to sort a very simple base line spec for bikes running in a rather more authentic P65 class. This being bikes in this class, must not be any lighter than 30% less than the base machine (original weight verified by owners clubs), and must have a wheelbase no less than 3 inches shorter than the original. Add to those very simple rules the requirement to use major component parts such as frame and motor, from within the P65 era, and allow anything that doesn’t strictly comply with these specs to run in the Brit twin-shock class. Bikes which fall outside of the outline specs above are clearly not P65 machines as such, and I cant see how anyone can argue that a modern day Villiers, Cub or Bantam is a P65{. I think this idea could be simply achieved by setting it up like a special test mid way in the trial, Bikes could be rolled over a portable weigh bridge( Pocket sized now) and the wheel base length checked, any bike not meeting the criteria, to the class entered would be docked marks for not entering in the appropriate class. What do you think? Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Guy’s I have just had this idea passed onto me and I think it could work.} It’s very very easy to sort a very simple base line spec for bikes running in a rather more authentic P65 class. This being bikes in this class, must not be any lighter than 30% less than the base machine (original weight verified by owners clubs), and must have a wheelbase no less than 3 inches shorter than the original. Add to those very simple rules the requirement to use major component parts such as frame and motor, from within the P65 era, and allow anything that doesn’t strictly comply with these specs to run in the Brit twin-shock class. Bikes which fall outside of the outline specs above are clearly not P65 machines as such, and I cant see how anyone can argue that a modern day Villiers, Cub or Bantam is a P65{. I think this idea could be simply achieved by setting it up like a special test mid way in the trial, Bikes could be rolled over a portable weigh bridge( Pocket sized now) and the wheel base length checked, any bike not meeting the criteria, to the class entered would be docked marks for not entering in the appropriate class. What do you think? Regards Charlie. What do i think? I think that it would be in my own interest just before the weight check to ride through as much mud as possible, similar to an F1 car driving through the "marbles" on the slowing down lap. Think i would also fill up with fuel from the spare bottle i wasnt carrying and even put that lead weight i wasnt carrying in my rucksack back under the engine. Oh yes and dont forget to slide the wheel back in the swing arm was that wheelbase with or without rider astride the machine and was that using leading axle forks or not? Might think of a few more this afternoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisby Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Take note of Peter Barber in this years Pre 65 Scottish, he is riding a very standard looking Greeves (steel rims, bannana front forks?,etc) He is not there to win but is there for the challange. He did ok in the last Peak classic trial on the intermidiate route. Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Take note of Peter Barber in this years Pre 65 Scottish, he is riding a very standard looking Greeves (steel rims, bannana front forks?,etc) He is not there to win but is there for the challange. He did ok in the last Peak classic trial on the intermidiate route. Steve. True he did very well and rides that greeves like a good un. Dont know about the white riding gear though Hope he does well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 many clubs last weekend could nt get a complmnet of observers never mind someone to weigh and measure 100 bikes.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 The other thing is, as we have both said previously countless times, that who in their right minds would want to ride an original bike as was in the scottish pre 65? and if so have they sought medication? Well, I wouldn't want to ride a standard Brit bike week in week out ( I used to have a standard and I mean standard, B40, so I have experience...) But, I love trials and am usually game for riding anything (er, within reason) and having ridden a couple of rigids for a bit of fun in the past, I would certainly have a go at the Scottish on one, a big one I mean, 350 or 500 sort, just to see how I got on. I wouldn't want to do it every year though, those guys have my admiration. But once, just to see, for the experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 This is the only part in which I honestly and friendly disagree with you Dave. I don´t think Scotland´s pre65 trial is the drive of the specification. It is just one trial compared to the hundreds of classic and pre65 trials that are arranged in UK and outside your borders every weekend, full of different categories (experts, clubmans, pre units, units, two or four strokes, rigids, pre72, pre77, pre80...) trials were so many people want to be the winner and arrive home with a cup. In Scotland just one can do so... The Scottish pre65 is THE pilgrimage site for trials riders worlwide. Hi Javier, there is no problem having a different opinion about this as it is all part of the discussion. But the only reason I disagree with you is because I spend many weekends riding in many classic and Pre65 trials all over the UK, so I know a lot of riders who own and like to build Pre65 bikes. As Paul mentioned in his comment, when talking about building Pre65 bikes, very often the subject mentioned is the Pre65 Scottish because if the riders want to enter it, then they have to build their bike to the rules of that event. Although there are many events in the UK that support all sorts of Pre65 bikes in all different stages of modification, the Scottish doesn't do this, so the rules of the other events don't matter. They won't make your bike right for Scotland. There is no specials class, just one set of rules and your bike must be built to those rules. However, if your bike is right for Scotland there will be no problem with rules at any other event in the UK. With so many people wanting to ride Scotland, this is why it is the standard for so many people considering buying or building a Pre65 bike. But I agree, I don't want to make this a topic about Scotland itself, but it is unavoidable in just this one matter of rules. But that is all. My own opinion on Pre65 is the same as I have said before. There are events all over the UK that cater for all types of Pre65 bikes and from what I can see, most riders seem happy with the way things are. The only thing I find crazy is what makes somethiing a special and what doesn't. Under the current rules, both the FB and James in the pictures are both considered Pre65 and would compete in the same class. If you put an old Ossa front wheel (for example) in the original bike it would have to go in the specials class, whilst the brand new 2012 specification bike stays in the Pre65 class....... Crazy PS What a coincidence, out of all the James, the bike I find a picture of is your bike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Guy’s I have just had this idea passed onto me and I think it could work.} It’s very very easy to sort a very simple base line spec for bikes running in a rather more authentic P65 class. This being bikes in this class, must not be any lighter than 30% less than the base machine (original weight verified by owners clubs), and must have a wheelbase no less than 3 inches shorter than the original. Add to those very simple rules the requirement to use major component parts such as frame and motor, from within the P65 era, and allow anything that doesn’t strictly comply with these specs to run in the Brit twin-shock class. Bikes which fall outside of the outline specs above are clearly not P65 machines as such, and I cant see how anyone can argue that a modern day Villiers, Cub or Bantam is a P65{. I think this idea could be simply achieved by setting it up like a special test mid way in the trial, Bikes could be rolled over a portable weigh bridge( Pocket sized now) and the wheel base length checked, any bike not meeting the criteria, to the class entered would be docked marks for not entering in the appropriate class. What do you think? Regards Charlie. Charlie, I realise you have the interests of trials at heart but with the best will in the world, it wouldn't be feasible to try and implement this and it would never happen at 99% of events, maybe the odd national. I'm convinced you're trying to find solutions to problems that don't exist. If you get out to some of the Miller and PJ1 rounds this year, events where there is no scrutineering, even the BMCA events, you will see huge varieties of bikes with all sorts of mods but I'll wager you'll hear no disgruntled murmuring from any riders - unless I'm reading the situation / atmosphere at these events very badly. I've heard one gripe in all the years I've ridden them and that was last year. It was a spectator from Yorkshire Classic who was watching the Reliance. He was looking at my bike parked at a section (the BSA in the picture) and I heard him remarking to another spectator that it wouldn't be eligible for YC events because of the Grimeca front wheel. I let it go as I wasn't bothered but that is literally the only gripe I've heard in all this time (had to be my bike didn't it... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) PS What a coincidence, out of all the James, the bike I find a picture of is your bike... Former bike, but yes, it´s a small world, isn´t it? Edited March 6, 2012 by Greeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 i was stood next to a rider at a YC trial who was sporting a grimeca hub. he was asked that next time would he enter as a special. no hassle no you must do this or that , a polite request. given and taken in good humour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 i was stood next to a rider at a YC trial who was sporting a grimeca hub. he was asked that next time would he enter as a special. no hassle no you must do this or that , a polite request. given and taken in good humour. Just a question but if he had had a billet Rickman copy hub or a billet Bantam / Cub alloy copy hub would he have been "asked" to enter as a special if he rode again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 i was stood next to a rider at a YC trial who was sporting a grimeca hub. he was asked that next time would he enter as a special. no hassle no you must do this or that , a polite request. given and taken in good humour. No problem with that, their club, their rules. Just didn't see why this one gent had to make a comment about my bike, the insinuation seeming to be that it shouldn't have been there. No comment about the brand new Cub and James parked next to it of course. Do you honestly not find this interpretation of what is or isn't a special utter nonesense? What is your view on the example I gave earlier? See below "Under the current rules, both the original FB and modern James in the pictures are considered Pre65 and would compete in the same class. If you put an old Ossa front wheel (for example) in the original bike it would have to go in the specials class, whilst the brand new 2012 specification bike stays in the Pre65 class" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 i think its fairly clear what the rules in many clubs are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) i think its fairly clear what the rules in many clubs are. Didn't question that, but what do you make of the example I gave in regards to what is and isn't classed a special. Do you honestly think there is any sense in it? Edited March 6, 2012 by Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Guy’s. Hi Dave, To be quite honest I have better things to be thinking about this year, well until after the Olympics’ anyway. But this crazy situation needs a solution, you may think there is no problem at the moment and I agree, but the more time goes on the more this so called Pre65 gets to be a travesty. Every one knows that there is not a single bike in any class across the country competing in classic trials, which can truly be called a pre 65 bike. We know the culprit is the Scottish club for allowing bikes into there trial with every contrived part that there is in existence. And you know with out repeating myself that this then gets passed down as the norm. This class of bike should Not be labelled with a Pre65 tab, and to be quite honest this is my only gripe, and at the end of the day I feel that this Pre65 tab is stopping new blood getting into the sport because of the cost of building this type of bike. Now on a more appropriate note, Dave I have said before if you want to compete on an original Ariel out of the factory in this Scottish trial ,you get an entry and I will lend you a bike to ride OK. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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