husty315r Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Now then, I want to ask the worldy wise about this Montesa clutch drag problem. It's doing my head in to be frank. No matter how warmed up the bike is, the drag is bad and keeps stopping the engine when i'm moving slow or stopped. Staring it is not funny any more. Does anyone have any sensible advice other than a new clutch kit? I also would like to ask, Is Castrol Driveline Sytnrax Universal 75W-90 any use for the clutch oil? I am not using it, just interested (bike still has the oil in that I bought it with in), but i have a lot of it spare, two gallons to be precise! So it would be nice to use it up... Look forward to any tips guys... many thanks Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highscore Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Hi Michael, There are a few things you can do - I did them all and my clutch is good now, smoother - much less snappy, bike starts in gear, etc. Replace the steel clutch plates with dimpled ones - I used Apico. They aren't too expensive. Make sure the clutch friction plates are fitted in the correct order as per the workshop manual - mine weren't!! Put it all back together and fill with Elf HTX740 (BVM can supply it) - expensive but good oil. It is not too big of a job. Change your ELF regularly, on mine if I find it difficult to select neutral from first, she's ready for an oil change. Hope this helps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlrmark Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) Hello, you do not say what year your bike is but this is key to the repair. The 315 came out in 1997, all through the 90's it was known as having terrible clutch drag. No amount of oil changes, trying different types of oils helped. The aftermarket clutch companies figured out the smooth metal plate was the problem and supplied a dimpled metal plate, end of problem. Some of us figured out the 1989 cr250r metal clutch plate (dimpled) fit, end of problem. Honda eventualy noticed what all their customers were doing to fix their bikes and started fitting the cr250r metal dimpled clutch plates on new bikes. I dont remember exactly the year the dimpled metal plates started to come on new bikes but it was the later years (315 made from 1997-2004). So to sum up the friction plates were never a problem from the start, no miracle oil could fix the problem. With the proper dimpled metal plates the 315 has a excellent clutch. Edited March 5, 2013 by tlrmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Now then, I want to ask the worldy wise about this Montesa clutch drag problem. It's doing my head in to be frank. No matter how warmed up the bike is, the drag is bad and keeps stopping the engine when i'm moving slow or stopped. Staring it is not funny any more. Does anyone have any sensible advice other than a new clutch kit? I also would like to ask, Is Castrol Driveline Sytnrax Universal 75W-90 any use for the clutch oil? I am not using it, just interested (bike still has the oil in that I bought it with in), but i have a lot of it spare, two gallons to be precise! So it would be nice to use it up... Look forward to any tips guys... many thanks Michael Change the oil (twice when necessary) and use the recommended Elf oil. (Elf HTX740 is a mono-grade 75w, not a multi-grade 75w90) If this doesn't help You can still change the plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husty315r Posted March 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Hello, you do not say what year your bike is but this is key to the repair. The 315 came out in 1997, all through the 90's it was known as having terrible clutch drag. No amount of oil changes, trying different types of oils helped. The aftermarket clutch companies figured out the smooth metal plate was the problem and supplied a dimpled metal plate, end of problem. Some of us figured out the 1989 cr250r metal clutch plate (dimpled) fit, end of problem. Honda eventualy noticed what all their customers were doing to fix their bikes and started fitting the cr250r metal dimpled clutch plates on new bikes. I dont remember exactly the year the dimpled metal plates started to come on new bikes but it was the later years (315 made from 1997-2004). So to sum up the friction plates were never a problem from the start, no miracle oil could fix the problem. With the proper dimpled metal plates the 315 has a excellent clutch. so in brief, i can buy the dimpled metal plates from a dealer yeah? thanks to everyone for their input - looks like there are two camps - one saying it s the oil, the other saying its the plates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Having run monts for the last 15 years would suggest the oil is the most important if clutch is correctly functioining. Never run the Elf apart from in a brand new 315r 2001. Everything else including this one when oil was due for a change has been run on ATF which works exceptionally well and is very good value. Would suggest you try ATF oil first, maybe even change oil twice to flush whatever is in there. If no improvement then investigate the plate options above. Other thing to check is master cylinder seal and slave cylinder seal to makes sure both are functioning correctly. I have had a pin hole in a master cyl sleeve which casued pressure to drop slowly with the lever pulled in. Also makes sure the adjustment on the lever is adjusted correctly. Best of luck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husty315r Posted March 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Having run monts for the last 15 years would suggest the oil is the most important if clutch is correctly functioining. Never run the Elf apart from in a brand new 315r 2001. Everything else including this one when oil was due for a change has been run on ATF which works exceptionally well and is very good value. Would suggest you try ATF oil first, maybe even change oil twice to flush whatever is in there. If no improvement then investigate the plate options above. Other thing to check is master cylinder seal and slave cylinder seal to makes sure both are functioning correctly. I have had a pin hole in a master cyl sleeve which casued pressure to drop slowly with the lever pulled in. Also makes sure the adjustment on the lever is adjusted correctly. Best of luck what a helpful bunch! Thanks very much for the Reply above - which type of ATF do you use? I had a look just now and there are a few different brands and types i see - my bike is a 315R 2001 ish. Chrome header pipe on exhaust if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 I think best spec ATF you can get . Choose one for the latest spec car. Don't go over board on price especially if using as a flush. I bought 50 lt several years ago for Merc E200 and been using ever since. Chrome pipe definately on 2001 but may of been a year or 2 earlier. Is it red mudguards,. inboard rear brake, 4 pot front caliper If so think clutch plates probably latest spec. Tried a good quality 2 stroke gear box oil once -replaced it and chucked the rest away after 1 trial - it can have that big an effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husty315r Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 I think best spec ATF you can get . Choose one for the latest spec car. Don't go over board on price especially if using as a flush. I bought 50 lt several years ago for Merc E200 and been using ever since. Chrome pipe definately on 2001 but may of been a year or 2 earlier. Is it red mudguards,. inboard rear brake, 4 pot front caliper If so think clutch plates probably latest spec. Tried a good quality 2 stroke gear box oil once -replaced it and chucked the rest away after 1 trial - it can have that big an effect I'll give that a go first then, cheers for input. It has chrome header pipe on exhaust, red guards with the Dougie Lampkin World Champion 2000 stickers all over it (a DL edition i believe), inboard rear brake, 4 pot front calliper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck4788 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I also don't like the difficulty in finding the Elf oil or its high price. So I did some research on oils: Crankcase lube oils are risky to use in a wet clutch because anti friction additives can cause clutch slippage. ATF oils are gear oils for wet clutches. Montesa recommends Elf HTX740, which is a very thin synthetic gear oil. Elf cautions to not use this oil in a wet clutch. EBC and others recommend not using synthetic oils in wet clutches. Go figure!! Dextron ATF provides much smoother clutch engagement than "F" type ATF. Synthetic ATFs are much thinner at typical ambient temps than Dino based ATFs (see chart below). Thicker oils cause more clutch drag, thinner oils quicker lockup Cork friction discs provide the smoothest engagement, paper the grabbiest. EBC claims smooth engagement with their sintered cork and Carbon Fiber frictions. I tried a Valvoline synthetic Dextron VI ATF in my 315R with good results. A little more drag at cold startup than the Elf, slightly longer range of engagement, and smoother lockup. The slight increase in drag was fixed with a bit of adjustment at the lever. Here is a table of gear oil viscosities at 40C and 100C, the dino oils are very much thicker at 40C than the syns You can see the Valvoline syn is closer to the Elf than the other ATF oils. Gear Oils................................ @40oC........... @100oC Elf HTX740............................. 21.4............. 7 Valvoline Dextron VI ATF syn.. 29.5........... 6.0 Mobile 1 Syn ATF.................. 36.3............. 7.4 Royal Purple Max ATF........... 35.0............. 7.5 Mobile Dextron VI ATF......... 38.8 Valvoline +4......................... 34.13.......... 7.55 Allison Transynd ATF ........... 53.9............ 9.75 Elf HTX735.............................114............17.8 Silkolene Medium 85W-90... 150-340..... 15 Silkolene Light 75W-80......... 100-180..... 15 Silkolene Comp 80W-90........ 100-145.... 15 Silkolene Pro SRG 75............ 100-180..... 11 Elf HTX755........................... 197.24......... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 So, apart from the price and availability (which is not a real problem for me), I don't see any major advantages ATF has over the Elf HTX740 oil. Or is there no drag at all with ATF oil? I have alway used the Elf oil in my 315R and also in my current 4RT and the only (small) problem I have is getting it in neutral. This is what the Italian Future Trial Racing team uses: Does anyone have any experiance with this gearbox oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Had a 98 315, it was a few years old when I bought it but just like Jimmyl said ATF was all it ever needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) Here's another one (Motul): I also don't like the difficulty in finding the Elf oil or its high price. So I did some research on oils: Crankcase lube oils are risky to use in a wet clutch because anti friction additives can cause clutch slippage. ATF oils are gear oils for wet clutches. Montesa recommends Elf HTX740, which is a very thin synthetic gear oil. Elf cautions to not use this oil in a wet clutch. EBC and others recommend not using synthetic oils in wet clutches. Go figure!! Dextron ATF provides much smoother clutch engagement than "F" type ATF. Synthetic ATFs are much thinner at typical ambient temps than Dino based ATFs (see chart below). Thicker oils cause more clutch drag, thinner oils quicker lockup Cork friction discs provide the smoothest engagement, paper the grabbiest. EBC claims smooth engagement with their sintered cork and Carbon Fiber frictions. I tried a Valvoline synthetic Dextron VI ATF in my 315R with good results. A little more drag at cold startup than the Elf, slightly longer range of engagement, and smoother lockup. The slight increase in drag was fixed with a bit of adjustment at the lever. Here is a table of gear oil viscosities at 40C and 100C, the dino oils are very much thicker at 40C than the syns You can see the Valvoline syn is closer to the Elf than the other ATF oils. Gear Oils................................ @40oC........... @100oC Elf HTX740............................. 21.4............. 7 Valvoline Dextron VI ATF syn.. 29.5........... 6.0 Motul ATF VI............................30,5...........6,10 Mobile 1 Syn ATF.................. 36.3............. 7.4 Royal Purple Max ATF........... 35.0............. 7.5 Mobile Dextron VI ATF......... 38.8 Valvoline +4......................... 34.13.......... 7.55 Allison Transynd ATF ........... 53.9............ 9.75 Elf HTX735.............................114............17.8 Silkolene Medium 85W-90... 150-340..... 15 Silkolene Light 75W-80......... 100-180..... 15 Silkolene Comp 80W-90........ 100-145.... 15 Silkolene Pro SRG 75............ 100-180..... 11 Elf HTX755........................... 197.24......... 2 Edited March 9, 2013 by guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleazy p Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Dextron 2 or 3, it's used in some of the most complicated auto boxes(BMW, Audi) in he world which all stress and heat the oil much more than in a bike, and these boxes also contain clutch plates for smooth transfer etc. my mate tried allsorts of bought stuff putoline clutch tuner and alike and still got drag, hard to kick start. 1 flush of ATF then a refill problem solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Found another one that I'm going to try: GRO Gear Extreme 75W (comes very close to the recommended Elf oil) I also don't like the difficulty in finding the Elf oil or its high price. So I did some research on oils: Crankcase lube oils are risky to use in a wet clutch because anti friction additives can cause clutch slippage. ATF oils are gear oils for wet clutches. Montesa recommends Elf HTX740, which is a very thin synthetic gear oil. Elf cautions to not use this oil in a wet clutch. EBC and others recommend not using synthetic oils in wet clutches. Go figure!! Dextron ATF provides much smoother clutch engagement than "F" type ATF. Synthetic ATFs are much thinner at typical ambient temps than Dino based ATFs (see chart below). Thicker oils cause more clutch drag, thinner oils quicker lockup Cork friction discs provide the smoothest engagement, paper the grabbiest. EBC claims smooth engagement with their sintered cork and Carbon Fiber frictions. I tried a Valvoline synthetic Dextron VI ATF in my 315R with good results. A little more drag at cold startup than the Elf, slightly longer range of engagement, and smoother lockup. The slight increase in drag was fixed with a bit of adjustment at the lever. Here is a table of gear oil viscosities at 40C and 100C, the dino oils are very much thicker at 40C than the syns You can see the Valvoline syn is closer to the Elf than the other ATF oils. Gear Oils................................ @40oC........... @100oC Elf HTX740............................. 21.4............. 7 Valvoline Dextron VI ATF syn.. 29.5........... 6.0 GRO Gear Extreme 75W......... 20.............. 5,2 Motul ATF VI............................30,5...........6,10 Mobile 1 Syn ATF.................. 36.3............. 7.4 Royal Purple Max ATF........... 35.0............. 7.5 Mobile Dextron VI ATF......... 38.8 Valvoline +4......................... 34.13.......... 7.55 Allison Transynd ATF ........... 53.9............ 9.75 Elf HTX735.............................114............17.8 Silkolene Medium 85W-90... 150-340..... 15 Silkolene Light 75W-80......... 100-180..... 15 Silkolene Comp 80W-90........ 100-145.... 15 Silkolene Pro SRG 75............ 100-180..... 11 Elf HTX755........................... 197.24......... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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