Montesa Injection

[joandemma]

How does mapping work, altering settings for different terrain. I have been told you can bluetooth message to bike to change it. Surely this is Bull****. Can someone explain how injection system works.

Edited May 24, 2006 by joandemma

[joandemma]

Thanks for that Ferretflasher, fully answered my query.

[trialsmm]

I could see a blue led light on their handlebar as they rode the sections

at TTC. Is there a different color led for each selection?

Trick looking!

[the alcoholic]

Heaven forbid I should contradict the MONTESA god/guru that is Ferretflasher who must eat, sleep and possibly do things with his Montesas that perhaps we shouldn't go into on a public forum.

The US Montesa advertisment flyer claims that the PGM-FI as fitted to the Mont will allow the bike to run perfectly at all times regardless of changes in altitude, temperature etc.. Ferretflashers explanation is excellent (so was the one on engine oil level, try as I might I couldn't find anything in the manual to back it up) and according to information gleaned from the web the Mont uses the following input parameters;

1 Bank angle sensor- if the bike leans over more than 65deg for more than 7 seconds it cuts out, allegedely!!!! I haven't the cahones to try it, but if anyone else has please let us know, I suppose you could just angle the sensor while the bike is upright but where's the fun in that?? I reckon mine has cut out twice while emulating a bit of offroad TT, I mean, how else do the footpegs get scratched on the outside?

2 Throttle body- not a parameter I know but the housing for the following; Throttle position, Intake pressure (this will compensate for altitude, charge temperature, notice how your bike goes better on cold damp days, denser air and air filter restriction) and Air inlet Temperature. These are the primary inputs for the ECM map program.

3 Coolant temperature- Housed in the radiator and unlike most bikes it simply provides an i/p to the ECM which decides (amongst other things) wether to employ the cooling fan.

4 Crank position pick up- Located beside the flywheel, simply a magic eye (a term most of my customers use, an inductive coupling seems to be beyond their grasp) to determine engine position and therefore timing.

The ECM calculates (quite quickly, remember the PC you are sitting in front off has more computing power than the first space shuttle, apparently!!) 2 basic parameters from the inputs and PREDICTS (remember it is only a prediction (don't like the term guess) guess none of us are perfect!) how much fuel to inject and when exactly to inject it. The MAP or program looks a bit like a 3D terrain representation of somewhere fairly flat.

Having said all that it is easy to see/understand the simplist way for the development engineers to restrict the bikes output was electronically which is exactly what they done by providing an input (via the W/G wire) to the ECM and is usually the first restrictor removed by end users. It is a matter of great DEBATE wether anything is gained by removing the FIVE other restrictors!!!!

Something that is not electronically controlled to my knowledge however is the tickover. I cannot stress how important this is as if it is set too low then not only will you probably be unable to get the F#*$ER to start (it might even kickback too and kneecaps are hard to come by at my age) it will/can run erratically, and you cannot bump start a 4RT. Be warned, this is the problem that afflicted my first 4RT and at least one other I know off, it seems the PDI engineer (trying extremely hard to be diplomatic here as I cannot find my Tin/kevlar helmet) adjusted them too low initially because one customer returned theirs as it was set too high, in their/his defence the first service would have cured this but who do you know who would/could ride the thing revving its/their knackers off!! Had mine been delivered with the correct tickover setting I firmly believe I would still own it, that and certain individuals insistence I hadn't a clue what I was talking about!! come to think of it they might have had a point!!!

Sorry if I have laboured the point and simply reiterated Ferretflashers post but some migh find it useful. Incidentially the use of wireless communication for motorsport related data transfer is extremely common today (even Nintendo DS uses it albeit a different protocol to Bluetooth), I wouldn't discount it as an inexpensive method for updating ECM/MAP software and if incorporated into a mobile phone (the main exponent of bluetooth which is just a protocol after all) then updates could be received easily anywhere in the world, not sure about D/T times though as I am unfamiliar with the size of engine maps.

As the great sage for everything Montesa put it though I am probably talking SH@$E so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong which is most probably right, if you see what I mean.

[jaylael]

Map sensor could get a value from inside the throttle body on the vacum side of the throttle plate, through a drilled hole perhaps, but FF you are saying there isn't one in the throttle body computer? A map sensor could help to calculate altitude compensation if it has one.

[jaylael]

Yes, inlet depression=MAP sensor. It has to be in there. The bulb thingy is Air Charge Temp. sensor or ACT. If the computer is as sophisticated as I think it is, it can calculate altitude from the map (inlet depression) sensor value, and refer to lookup table to figure out relative air density. This is an amazing piece of work. If Honda TLs ran this good and were this light everybody would have bought one.

[jaylael]

Would inlet depression be the same number at top of Killeminjarro and Say, Silsden at 1800 rpm? The difference could be used as altitude compensation. You make an excellent point, and I'm not saying you are wrong so much as to simply try to understand the system.

[jaylael]

I hope you can see that that little tapping is the wrong side of the throttle to accuratly measure the atmospheric pressure....its got a snarling snorting 4 valve engine and piston sucking on it!!!  When the throttle is shut and the engine is running , how can it sense the air pressure on the air filter side?? It cannot, its impossible!!

The only reason I had considered this as a possibillity is because some GM cars actually use this technology as far back as the late 80's. Granted they have a battery and therefore can take a quick check of "inlet depression" before you start the engine, thusly measuring altitude. In the case of the M4RT it's more a matter of semantics. Even with a 4 valve engine sucking it to negative pressures, the reading will be different at high altitude because air pressure will be different to begin with, hence it is altitude compensated by the fact that "inlet depression" will NOT be the same number at high vs. low altitudes. The difference is a very small number.

[jaylael]

It suddenly occurs to me, since yes I can be a bit thick at times, the natural effect of lower inlet depression due to high altitude would richen up the exhaust, thus having the opposite effect of what is needed. You are correct FF. It can't possibly have automatic altitude compensation the way it's built.

[mathew]

Here is an interesting note/comment regarding the injection system. I had the fan motor lock up on mine about a month ago. Was out trail riding just cruising along and all of a sudden you could not apply much power without the bike cutting out and feeling like it was running out of gas. Light loads were fine and it would idle. Hadn't noticed the fan at that time. Next morning fired it up and ran great .... until it fully warmed up at which point the cutting out came back. Then I noticed the fan not working. New fan, fixed problem - runs like normal. Moral of the story - at some level of coolant temp the ECU must prevent heavy loads from being applied to prevent a major overheat? This is apparently at a conservative temp because no coolant boiled out and I never heard any pinging or knocking (running just premium pump gas). The nice thing was it still ran good enough limp back to camp, just not fast.

Brings me to a question - has anyone ever had coolant boil out of a 4rt?

Still really enjoying this bike.

Mathew

[the alcoholic]

FerretFlasher my old doubting thomas,

If you can provide me with some form of secure communication (could I ring Tony??) I could provide you with the proof of the Intake Pressure Sensor that I believe even you might accept.

I work on equipment infinitely more complicated (sometimes on a daily basis) than the Mont PGM FI system, I only say this as I haven't personally seen the sensor, but neither have I seen the gearbox on my company hack but rest assured it is there and doing its job, I only possess the average recovering alchies level of curosity regarding my bike i.e. if it aint broke there is little need to fix it syndrome, as long as it works and continues to do so I am a happy chappie!

Has anyone heard of Schraeder Electronics? I have seen their wireless tyre pressure sensors and they are absolutely tiny!!!!!!

I wouldn't dream of entering into your discussion regarding inlet depression (ever so clever/interesting as it sounds, an all) as I would rapidly lose the will to live, and however appealing that sounds I think I will give it a miss! but hey each to his own,, EH!

The offer stands, if you are interested, and if I can manage to fend off my drunken stupor.

Your ever helpful 4RT aficionado,

The Alchie.

PS, ever consider I might just have made it up to reel you in ????????

[the alcoholic]

Oh FF you old Foxy Fella you, you got me, I made it all up just to razz you!!!!! I know you can't be serious with your "Comments welcomed (except from you-know-who)." comment within an open forum so here goes;

Can't help wondering how Mr. Honda and Mr. Keihin are going to feel though, what with them creating ALL of those schematics and the Throttle Position (TP) and Intake Pressure (PB) graph, not to mention the four or so pages given over to explaining how the thing actually works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still rest assured you are almost completely, absolutely, not a chance have you jumped the gun, certainly, right. I think perhaps you put it best yourself in one of your other posts, maybe "your eyes really are painted on"!! Or you have developed a penchant for my affliction, mixing your drinks - paint stripper and bleach, it was good enough for Vivian after all.

Oh and on another note;

wireless pressure gauges!!!........(sorry don't know how the quote thingy works) How exactly do you think the tyre pressure indicator in a vehicle works? via ring gear???? Or perhaps a pixie/gremlin takes a picture of it and takes a GUESS (probably refers to the table on loan from Honda/Keihin) then uploads it to a "post it note" and leaves it on your dashboard!! PLeeasee.

And again;

A/C on motorbikes?......Just lift the visor man, thus ensuring you will get all the AIR you want, it just takes a little CONDITIONING.

Have to agree with Big John, this really is beginning to sound trivial/childish (I am sure JOANDEMMA is sorry they asked). Should we agree to disagree?

After all, had someone told us at a trial even 5 years ago there would be a world class (4t) trials bike that the average joe could buy with Fuel Injection (with or without an Intake Pressure Sensor) he would have been laughed off the mountain. I must confess you must have big cahone's (trying hard not to make a quip about them obscuring your vision), pulling apart a perfectly good throttle body just to prove a point, all I had to do was read through about 8-10 pages, RESULT.

This is almost certainly, postively, absolutely, probably the last thing I will say on the subject.

Hic. Hic.

The Alchie

PS. The schematic shows a thermistor (IAT-intake air temperature) a potentiometer (TP-throttle position) and I confess to having never seen the diagram thingy for the Intake pressure sensor (all three powered in parallel via pin 5-Vcc and pin 2-SG, I think as the copy i seen is a little indistinct to say the least), so maybe it really doesn't exist and they have actually made it up, this may sound flippant but I assure you it is heart felt. After all to err is human!!!!!!!

[atomant]

This is what the inside of your ECU looks like,

I would think the ECU is a little black box with wires coming out of it . What you're describing (and shown in the pics) looks like the intergrated sensor unit used by the ECU to control the FI. Is that correct?

[ham2]

This is almost certainly, postively, absolutely, probably the last thing I will say on the subject.

Hic. Hic.

The Alchie

Then the fella goes on to write a P.S.on the same subject..... Laugh? I thought my pants would never dry

[atomant]

ZZZzzzzzz...................zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz!

Ahh.. So I was right then