Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Arizona National Feedback


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#61 kramit

kramit

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 449 posts
  • Bike:Kram-it
  • Club:scta

Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

http://www.mototrial...12412-Final.pdf

From the NATC website. Supplemental rules Section G "Minders"

also here under rules updates:
http://www.mototrial...update_2013.pdf


6) Minder must sign all required release form and wear approved riding apparel at all times.

7. Minder must abide by all non-competition rider rules. Minders are only allowed in the Sections when their riders are attempting a section or as otherwise allowed by the observer.

I don't see where it says that riders must wear a helmet while walking the section. You may have a point there.

I have seen it both ways. Misunderstanding or not knowing the rules is something that both riders and observers are guilty of. and yes we are reviewing the NATC rule book.

Yes, it is a tough road being a Pro rider. But stop for a moment and step outside yourself. I checked both days in AZ with 2 great guys. All 3 of us had spent hundreds of $$$ and traveled many miles to stand in the woods and check and that is NOTHING compared to the work and $$ put in by the organizers. Why do it ? Because we love Trials.

Over the 2 days checking in AZ only one minder asked permission to enter the section. A couple always stayed outside the ribbon and the rest just walked through the section until told to get out.

NATC is just a bunch of volunteers just like any local club. It's easy to criticize and over the years I have been a part of NATC and at the same time critic of the way things are done. The good news is that there is new blood at NATC and I am optimistic about the future.

One thing I love about the way NATC is run that if you criticize something then you need to be ready to man up with a solution and fix it.

Yes a lot needs to be improved but these are the people that step up and DO THE WORK. The fact is that this sport runs on volunteer power.

Should there be professional observers, big Pro purses, big $$ sponsors and TV coverage, of course.



You don't like punching out on most of the sections ? then move down a class.

Sorry to be so direct but that's the way I see it.

Lets face it.....the "Pro Class" is made up of mostly part time riders who have other jobs, hobbies, or school. Their talent overall is rising every year due to the demands of the Pro Sections at our Nationals and at the same time sends the newest talent down the road. How long can this continue? Regressing to the Expert Class is not the answer as this almost never happens (for whatever reason) The Pro class is shrinking which means there's most likely a problem.
The NATC needs to address this as the organizing body......if not, who else will.
Its not like 20 or 30 years ago when the ability of the top class riders was somewhere between our current top Sportsman or Expert Class riders (if even that high)
Riders with a strong desire could arrive at this level in several years or so and maintain a position in the top 10 and still have a life outside the sport which in my view helped maintain a larger pool of attendance.
I personally don't see any answers in the near future unless the dead wood in the NATC chooses to step aside.
My opinion....If your not currently riding the Nationals, your attendance at the meeting should be welcome...but never allowed to make any decisions as to rules or changes in the sport.
Let the Riders Decide the Future of the Sport


Edited by kramit, 22 August 2013 - 03:21 AM.



Ads By Google User is online

Ads By Google
  • Ad Bots


Don't want these Ads? Why not help support TC and sign up as a Trials Central Supporter?

#62 steve fracy

steve fracy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,552 posts
  • Location:Shawnigan Lake, BC Canada
  • Bike:GG300 racing. Fantic
  • Club:Island Sports Trials Club

Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:44 AM

Lots of great points guys! with the Pro class, that's a tough one. While attending my first Nationals since the early 90's this year, I was really shocked at the small entry in the Pro class, but very impressed with all of the riders who rode it. Its a far cry from the years when I rode, and to be in the top 10 was considered good! ( sorry for sounding like an old man....but I am one now!)

If you are a rider, and you are riding the Pro class, this means that you are considered the elite of your country. It might also mean that you have aspirations to go ride in Europe ( like Bryan and Karl) . You have to expect and demand that the top class is at least helping you build the skills necessary to hold your own in a World Round. NATC has always followed FIM in order to keep in line there ( not opening up the latest can of worms either with no stop rule).

So now its a catch 22 situation with being able to get enoughriders back in the Pro class with slightly easier sections,and be able to challenge the top guys too! Thing is, the same things is going on everywhere, even in World Rounds. The top 5 or so are another level above the rest....entries are down from historical numbers.

Wish I had the answers, but one thing for sure, we all volunteer our time effort and $$$$ because we love the sport!

Edited by steve fracy, 22 August 2013 - 03:45 AM.

The Older I get, the better I was!

#63 chuckindenver

chuckindenver

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Location:Denver, Co. USA
  • Bike:Beta Evo
  • Club:RMTA WYTA AMA NATC ITSA

Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:01 PM

setting a trial..
in any class. they should not be set for the top 2 riders..rather then the middle of the pack..
if you have 10 sections..7 or 8 should set so that most riders can ride them safely, and clean them if they ride them right, 2 should be just above that , and one should be the tie braker..
i set one section in each class..that i know...cant be cleaned by the average rider in that class. a foot down will be needed to make at least one part of that section..
this does a couple things...evens up the field, makes the event fun so that we can all show up to work on monday...and shows who needs to step up or step down a notch.
however...that should be up to the rider...and not a club..or group...all that does, is chase riders away..
Jon drops 75 points riding the advance line everytime??maybe the guy needs to really ride the Intermediate line...
Bob rides the advance line and never drops more then 5 points...this rider likely should be in the expert class..
however..
Bob is 55 years old. and rode Pro in the 1980s and has a full time job like the rest of us...can likely ride the big stuff, but cant see laying on the couch with a cast on his leg..
so...we make a Sr or Vet advance class..that guys like Bob.. can ride together..and have as much fun as everyone else..
NATC has Sr and Age groups as well, some great riders on those lines, and a great turn out from riders in those classes.
all in all i think the Basics guidlines are ok with the NATC, and those who help out...but to get this sport to come back...some things will need to change..
i belive they will, make the events fun, and geared at that...push the support riders, and get some bling to give out to our pro riders...keep the ruling simple and easy to understand, and keep the event friendly.. keep in mind..safety is first and foremost.. respect as well..
there is a bigger picture that some cant see...and some just dont want to see.... the real reason we all ride a motorcycle...cuz its fun.

#64 playwithgravity

playwithgravity

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Wyoming
  • Bike:Beta
  • Club:WMTA, RMTA, NATC

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:44 AM

"You don't like punching out on most of the sections ? then move down a class.

Sorry to be so direct but that's the way I see it."

And that logic there is exactly why half the Pros are missing this season. Several rounds last season had the 3rd place rider coming in with close to 100 points. It put a great challenge of for Pat and Cody, and meanwhile ran the rest of us off.Colorado had a section EVERYBODY in the Pro class punched thru. Does that seem acceptable? I understand there will be sections I can't do, and there should be so as to put a challenge on the better riders. I'm ok with that. However, when you have half the class of 10 riders punching thru 4-6 sections, you have to admit that maybe our class placement isn't the problem here.

Chuck said it. We do it because it's fun. Those types of trials aren't fun. So, we quit doing it. Simple as that.

#65 chuckindenver

chuckindenver

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Location:Denver, Co. USA
  • Bike:Beta Evo
  • Club:RMTA WYTA AMA NATC ITSA

Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:17 PM

and when Pat and Cody stop doing nationals to do other venues that actually pay money...AE: enduro cross, stunt shows. TV ect..then whos gonna ride that crazy section you set??
how many Pros rode the Nationals this year? 6? and how many Pro riders are there in all the clubs combined? well over 20?
think you answered your own question as to why the small turn out.
the whole. if ya dont like it...dont ride it.. additude.. sounds like its time to step back, and review that just a bit..
im just a quilty of this..this spring...i set a line, and looked at it with wonder and pride...then my brother asked...what you trying to do, kill these guys?? hmmm,.. ok...your right...lets change a few things..

#66 steve fracy

steve fracy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,552 posts
  • Location:Shawnigan Lake, BC Canada
  • Bike:GG300 racing. Fantic
  • Club:Island Sports Trials Club

Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:25 PM

Chuck:

Your comments are spot on, and in my opinion apply to all the classes, except Pro. Wish I knew Playwithgravity's name so I dont have to use that handle to address you. :D I agree with you to a certain point too, but, Pro is Pro and sometimes an organizer does not get it ALL right. It happens in WTC still too....its really just the way it goes sometimes!

Entries being down is a worldwide epidemic, not exclusive to the NATC Nationals. Its NOT because the sections are too hard, I think its much more complex than that.

Steve
The Older I get, the better I was!

#67 martin belair

martin belair

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 321 posts
  • Bike:montesa

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:40 PM

I agree that getting the section difficulty right on the Pro sections is critical and some times organizers get it wrong.

But there is another factor that no one talks about. Riders that are not ready for Pro. We have lost some potential top riders because they jumped up to Pro before they were ready....... got their bikes and their butts beat up and quit. I realized that these young riders are gung ho but they also are deaf to the warnings that they receive.

When I said "You don't like punching out on most of the sections? then move down a class" I was not expressing an overall attitude, I was offering advise to one rider.

Setting sections for the Pros has become nearly impossible in areas of high traction. They have the same problems at the world level. One suggestion is to have the Pro riders and Organizers look at the sections the day before the event and make adjustments. Everybody wants to get this right.

Edited by martin belair, 24 August 2013 - 02:14 AM.


#68 chuckindenver

chuckindenver

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Location:Denver, Co. USA
  • Bike:Beta Evo
  • Club:RMTA WYTA AMA NATC ITSA

Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

agree, Steve..its a can o worms for sure...i think some are headed in the right direction...some additudes are changing...more rules isnt the answer...promotion,. freindly...and having fun is...it will take time...
some things we can all do at our club level,. is to head off the bad additudes..and when you see a new rider. go out of your way to say hello, and welcome into your family of Trials riders..
its hard being the new kid...easier when everyone wants to be your pal.
hook them up with other riders at the same level...
last spring we signed up 30 new riders at my event...i made sure they rode in groups and made friends...
im sure most will ride again...some may not... lots of twin shock riders have a hard time adjusting to the mordern sections and rules..
facts are, people dont like change...and will fight it even if its better for the whole...try and do it with a handshake and a smile...avoid the clicks and drama that kill clubs... we can learn from AHRMA.. you can turn your nose up and rule yourself out of the game pretty fast...people dont stop riding...they just ride another venue..

#69 martin belair

martin belair

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 321 posts
  • Bike:montesa

Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:18 AM

Agreed Chuck and Steve we all got into this because it was fun. I have always said about Trials that " there is no fame, money or women so it had better be fun"

#70 zippy

zippy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,874 posts
  • Location:Redneck Hell
  • Bike:03 BadAssGasGas 300
  • Club:Team WGASA, Bent Fenders

Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:35 AM

Agreed Chuck and Steve we all got into this because it was fun. I have always said about Trials that " there is no fame, money or women so it had better be fun"


WHAT!!????? No Fame, Money, or :boobies: !!! I have been lied to! I want my dignity back!! I have been crashing and acting like a fool for free for too long! :chairfall: :banana2: :banana: :bouncy:

Actually keeping it fun is the key to keeping our sport alive. I have notice that (warning generalization coming) the Expert, Pro class riders tend to be a bit more serious about the competition part of it. They really try to place in the top 3, but even so they are still in it for the fun.
Also, different people have a different idea of fun. Some riders just like to go hang out with other riders do some BS ing or razz each other about their riding. Other riders find it fun to challenge themselves and overcome their own "mental" obstacles as well as the terrain.
So as hard as it is we who organize need to wrap all that up in a nice package for a days ride, and most of the time at club level we do a good job of it.

We have all had a bad experience with 1 or 2 new riders over the years. Newbies that come in all confident, trash talking and get upset when teenager rides better than they do, or expecting someone to hold their hand and provide everything they may want with no effort on their part. But we can't let these very few bad experiences stop us from extending a hand to the next newbie, because they are not all like that. Most just want to have fun and hang out with other people that enjoy what they do too.
To be a MotoTrials rider it takes focus and OH LOOK A SQUIRREL!


Ads By Google User is online

Ads By Google
  • Ad Bots


Don't want these Ads? Why not help support TC and sign up as a Trials Central Supporter?

#71 playwithgravity

playwithgravity

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Wyoming
  • Bike:Beta
  • Club:WMTA, RMTA, NATC

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:52 AM

It is more complicated than sections being too hard, I agree. I've essentially signed up for the hardest class this nation has to offer. And obviously there will be some really hard trials as compared to others. Last season was an epidemic. Now, I didn't see the scores for AZ and NM, but judging by the eastern rounds, it still is a factor. But, combine that with the hassle we have been consistantly getting about made up rules and it makes for not so much fun. If we were getting a bit of payment out of the deal, we could at least look at it as, maybe it isn't all that fun, but we do get paid a bit, so it's worth it. However, reality says that won't be happening anytime soon.

With that being said, it might be tough to address the lack of the other classes out there. Obviously payment isn't an option, so what else can we do to make it more enjoyable? I was thinking a saturday night BBQ for all the riders right after awards. Walmart is good for sponsoring gift cards, so the food cost could be nothing. Also, possibly get, say a $500 sponsorship from somewhere, and buy rear tires with it. Maybe several sets of grips too. As for giving those away, it could be done several way. Draw a random rider's name. Maybe pick a couple random classes to give to the winners, or top three. Or, top 5 in the class with the most riders in it. And DEFINITELY advertise that way ahead of time to attempt to draw some entries.

I did actually run into a guy in Sturgis that watched the AZ national. He said he heard about it from a friend of a friend of a friend. He could find no advertising at all and no markings. He said he heard it was in the Haulapai mountains, so he just started driving and was lucky enough to stumble upon it. Marking and advertising has always been terrible, generally speaking, at nationals since I started them in 02. The worst offender was Texas in 2011. I had a girlfriend that was there to spectate. The trial itself was waaaaaay out of the way as it was. The course had a 12 mile loop with roads all over the place, and supposedly signs directing spectators to sections. She drove around for 3 hours, never finding a single section, got p****d and left. On the flip side, Donner was always amazing at getting spectators. They grouped sections and had trolleys running to the groups, making it super easy to watch. Lets face it, the more people we get this in front of, the more chance we have to get some new riders.

#72 old trials fanatic

old trials fanatic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,730 posts
  • Location:Derbyshire
  • Bike:James Bulto TY Ossa
  • Club:Peak Classic, Dales Classic, AA, Tufty.

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

After reading the last few comments it makes me realise that the sport of Trials as you run it in the US is almost a totally different sport to Trials in the UK and Europe. Good luck anyway.
The Victor Meldrew of Trials Central. Dont believe everything you read about me because the truth is much much worse !! LOL

#73 lineaway

lineaway

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,732 posts
  • Location:usa
  • Club:NMTA, MWVTA

Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:19 PM

To playwithgravity, Too bad you missed Arizona and the NM events. In New mexico we actually had a Tv commercial and the event was held at a ski area that is remote, but still very accessible. Very steep loop for the spectators, but the ski lift was running. It was pretty cool that the section I scored Saturday was within a 200ft from the top of the lift. I ended up with a lot of spectators at about 9200ft with a most awesome view.(Mrs. Meyerpeters about had a nervous breakdown from the ski lift ride up!) Quite entertaining.
We had 1 section for the whole weekend that Pat was the only rider to get through. Otherwise the Pro`s had good point spread for the sections. Luckily only a few small showers. The experts had a few almost too hard. My section sunday was hard and long. So the pro`s and Experts raced through the final half. Most finishing with less than 5 seconds to spare! Great event.
  

#74 chuckindenver

chuckindenver

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Location:Denver, Co. USA
  • Bike:Beta Evo
  • Club:RMTA WYTA AMA NATC ITSA

Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:48 AM

its obvious that we all care enough about this crazy sport to want to improve...i truly think we are on the right path..
show case the support lines...pics, ect...and keep it friendly..
promotion of an event can be tricky..i think each club has one person that does a better job then most..
travel, premits. fuel cost..and other hobbies usually come into play..
i had planned on riding most of the national events this year..but other parts of life, money , job ect, got in the way..
in the next few years we will have a whole new group of Pro level riders dipping a foot in the big rocks...
if we make them feel at home...it may go better then worse..
on FB,..the NATC posted a nice group of over 700 pics...some of the support riders loved it when they got tagged,..a little of that goes a long way....heck even some of the TS riders got some camera time....bout time..i say bout time..




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users