42 replies to this topic

[Telecat]

StuartC, on Aug 8 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

If certain members of the bradford club start coming up to my dad with accusations they better make sure they get them right


No accusation was made a QUESTION was asked !!!!



As regards markers for other courses I mark on the lines that if the two are serperated then the Lower course markers do not count. Provided the rider passes thru the correct markers for their course the line of a lower or higher course are discounted. The exception being where a course is has main Course markers of one set of colours and Exception markers for an alternate course. National and World Trials don't have this. Where riders use the same gate all markers are set for that gate.



?????????
I really dont understand this at all.

A question that having re-read my post was not required. NYL is pretty protective so I shouldn't worry about it. Maybe The observer should check himself though???

As I see it clubs have exception gates. In other words ride the main flags unless there are lower or higher course markers alongside. Most clubs are starting to drop these and have both sets of flags together until they wish to seperate the courses as riders were getting confused. Hence as per National course. Usually Blue and Red for the "hard" course and White and Yellow on the "easier" course, with White and red being the right hand side flags for their particular courses. Where a White and red mark are in the same position one side, and Blue and yellow are in the same spot marking the other, the course is the same. When they are seperated the courses differ. If a "hard" course rider dislodges white or yellow Providing they "make" the red and Blue gate it does not affect the score as those marker are "outside" the course they have chosen to ride. The same goes for the Clubman rider dislodging a Red or blue marker. That should make it clear.

[copemech]

I shall ask this question again as copied from another yet with no answers!

Quote

So if I were able to imagine this "imaginary line" thing, would it apply to both axles, as in the "floater" or "crossing your tracks" rules, or shall we now do something totally different again in the case of the "gates" such as was apparently applied to many at Hawkstone by fiving riders for protruding anything including your a*** between another set of markers based upon this line that does not exhist!

I should add, do we just count the axles, such as the start and end gates?

I do not think this is the last time these problems will come up!

As even IF there were a tape marker there, the riders could many times push the tape for maximum advantage!

What do you think?

[AtomAnt]

dbrown, on Aug 8 2006, 08:44 PM, said:

I actually had Fuji's line in mind when laying out section 2, but thought to myself wow, that's insane

Damn right it was!! When he done it, he was offline and had to take an instictive decision to just do it and he did. Most mortals would have thought.. Hmmmmm hospital job if I do that!
Great section Dan

[Dixie]

This topic has fired a few people up

what we need is laser markers on the boundary lines

then if a bike goes outsine the line it blows up.SORTED

the observers decision is final i thought,if a few more people botherd to have a go maybe it would become more uniform with lots of well expreienced officials on a section disscussing the decision.

but this is the real world and my final decision is GOOD ON YOU ALL OBSERVERS,
i for one would take whatever decision you made and still thank you for you time on a sunday morning

[scorpa3]

I say again; It takes real nerve to observe a WTC section. I'm full of admiration to those who do.

[copemech]

Still looking for reasonable answers to my question and have not recieved one yet!

[bikespace]

copemech, on Aug 9 2006, 04:57 AM, said:

I shall ask this question again as copied from another yet with no answers!

Quote

So if I were able to imagine this "imaginary line" thing, would it apply to both axles, as in the "floater" or "crossing your tracks" rules, or shall we now do something totally different again in the case of the "gates" such as was apparently applied to many at Hawkstone by fiving riders for protruding anything including your a*** between another set of markers based upon this line that does not exhist!

I should add, do we just count the axles, such as the start and end gates?

I do not think this is the last time these problems will come up!

As even IF there were a tape marker there, the riders could many times push the tape for maximum advantage!

What do you think?

Good question - I would judge it (rightly or wrongly) as though it were a tape across the ground. If their wheel crosses it, then it's a 5, and I mean where the wheel touches the ground, so it would be covered by the rule which gives a 5 for the wheel touching the ground outside a boundary.

[Nigel Dabster]

Think the ruling is that you have to pass through the wrong gate for a five so it may be down to interprtation, if it is the case a wheel in a gate would be harsh but I doubt it was marked a 5 anywhere else but in the uk, right or wrong.

[Nigel Dabster]

got the wording which says that the rider shouldpass through the gate for a failure so maybe UK round was harsh marking?

http://www.trialonline.org/


pqge 33 of the rules

Edited by Nigel Dabster, 10 August 2006 - 12:27 PM.

[dbrown]

Although the wording in the FIM rulebook is not specific, I was told by FIM officials a year ago (I'm sure it was Dave Willoughby) that it was as if a tape was on the ground between the two gate flags. This is the way we put it into the AMA/NATC observer training video and the way it was explained to the observers at the Friday night meeting in TN. Copemech must have already drank too much beer to remember.

I think it would be better if the FIM rules were modified to specifically clarify this point.

We made sure to place two flags for each and every gate in TN, even though in some cases that meant a flag was attached to the boundary ribbon. When inspecting the sections, the FIM officials told me that it wasn't really necessary to place a flag on the boundary ribbon. But if you don't have two distinct flags, it seems to me impossible to judge precisely where the gate is that someone else might be forbidden to cross. Granted, crossing the gate by other classes is not an issue 98% of the time, but it seems to me that one must be consistent in marking.

We had another weird issue in Sequatchie with a rider getting out of the "corridor", i.e., leaving the que without riding to clean his tires in the stream. Our strict observer on that section was ready to give him a 5 for crossing the tapes of the corridor, although he re-entered and rode in his turn. I made a judgment and instructed the observer by radio to give him a verbal warning but not a 5. In checking the rules, it says the rider will be penalised by 5 additional points for 1) leaving his machine in the corridor, 2) mechanic entering corridor, or 3) receiving any outside assistance to the machine in the corridor. So it doesn't precisely say that one must remain in the corridor, even though I mistakenly informed the observers that riders must do so (and this observer remembered! Hint: wasn't Copemech).

It is impossible to remember every rule for every possible situation, so that is why the rulebook must be handy and must be consulted for specifics.

Observing a world round is a challenging task, and the best observers are level headed, calm, deliberate, and not easily rattled by the pandemonium around them.

dan

[bikespace]

Exact quote though "052.4.2 If a rider passes, in either direction, between the gates of another class it will be considered as a failure."
Now I would probably give more benefit of the doubt than I've seen some give, because I have to be convinced that the rider has without any doubt broken the rules or boundary. And it may be that I'm wrong in doing that. Tough call I think. Ron's been round a few years, and is the chief observer - all the riders know that too - they know what they need to do.
If you showed them what they did, they'd probably have to agree that it breaks the rules. There would probably be a few "yeah but's" and I sort of agree with them, but the purists will say rules is rules. They're not wrong.

[copemech]

Dan, for your information I have a pornografic memory and total recall of every word you said, just like your students!

I do think that clarification is needed, as you agree in your statement!

I always prefer to interprit the rules in the spirit in which they were written and which is fair for the rider!

In this case, DON'T RIDE BACKWARDS THROUGH THE GATE! DUMMY!

My personal inclination would be to judge it the same as crossing your tracks, meaning BOTH wheels, tireprints or axles! At that point, they have "passed "!

Point being, if the riders themselves are ambiguous on this and have not been told, how should they react?


I need a beer now,

MC

ps- I think Liai can kick your ass!

Edited by copemech, 12 August 2006 - 02:17 AM.

[scorpa3]

copemech, on Aug 11 2006, 04:54 AM, said:

Dan, for your information I have a pornografic memory.......

Kool!