Week 17 - A Case For A Classic Cock-up

[twinshockdude]

the problem as i see it is that the classic series is set out for over 50 on modern bikes,so is too hard for old riders on old bikes,it`s as simple as that.the alternative is to ride the miller rounds,these are set out for old guys on pre 65`s,the only problem with that is that the largest class is now younger guys on twinshocks,so these trials are generally too easy for these riders,so what we need is the miller championship for pre 65 and the classic championship for twinshock and let the modern bikes ride in there own trials.

this would be heaven,only problem with this is are there enough entries to make it viable?

pesonally i am getting older and fatter by the minute so am doing the miller series, is it too easy ? yes. am i enjoying it ? yes.

nothing with classic trials is perfect,there is too big a range of rider and machine ability.

[nigel dabster]

the problem as i see it is that the classic series is set out for over 50 on modern bikes,so is too hard for old riders on old bikes,it`s as simple as that.the alternative is to ride the miller rounds,these are set out for old guys on pre 65`s,the only problem with that is that the largest class is now younger guys on twinshocks,so these trials are generally too easy for these riders,so what we need is the miller championship for pre 65 and the classic championship for twinshock and let the modern bikes ride in there own trials.

this would be heaven,only problem with this is are there enough entries to make it viable?

pesonally i am getting older and fatter by the minute so am doing the miller series, is it too easy ? yes. am i enjoying it ? yes.

nothing with classic trials is perfect,there is too big a range of rider and machine ability.

I think twd you have isolated the basic problem, there is not a decent over 40 championship or over 50, they have taken over the classic because there is none of "their own trials".

Furthermore as the over 40 has become more competitive the sections need to be harded for them.

It is alright saying keep the classic just for them but it isn't viable without the class d and e.What the answer is that maybe the miller series needs to absorb the classic and the modern bikes could maybe go in with the womens championship????

[scorpa3]

the problem as i see it is that the classic series is set out for over 50 on modern bikes,so is too hard for old riders on old bikes,it`s as simple as that.the alternative is to ride the miller rounds,these are set out for old guys on pre 65`s,the only problem with that is that the largest class is now younger guys on twinshocks,so these trials are generally too easy for these riders,so what we need is the miller championship for pre 65 and the classic championship for twinshock and let the modern bikes ride in there own trials.

this would be heaven,only problem with this is are there enough entries to make it viable?

pesonally i am getting older and fatter by the minute so am doing the miller series, is it too easy ? yes. am i enjoying it ? yes.

nothing with classic trials is perfect,there is too big a range of rider and machine ability.

I think twd you have isolated the basic problem, there is not a decent over 40 championship or over 50, they have taken over the classic because there is none of "their own trials".

Furthermore as the over 40 has become more competitive the sections need to be harded for them.

It is alright saying keep the classic just for them but it isn't viable without the class d and e.What the answer is that maybe the miller series needs to absorb the classic and the modern bikes could maybe go in with the womens championship????

I know this is not my idea as it's been said many times before, but I personally think the Novogar series is the ideal championship to host the over 40's. Stick in a B route, keep the severity of the original route the same and make the B route a little easier and the problem is solved.

Any top over 40's like those mentioned, can still ride as Clubmen on the A route.

Also, any younger riders who wish to have an easier ride can choose the B route for no award, (or even introduce a novice/beginer/newcomer cat for them.)

That way everyone is happy, the Over 40's get their own championship, the Classic series can be the right severity for good classic riders and the Miller series can be the correct severity for genuine classic machines.

I'm sure that I will be contradicted here, but I feel that getting the severity of trials right is the most important thing. Not trying to think of ways of letting modern bikes ride competitively in classic events.

[dale]

Here we go again -perhaps i,am missing something here but - is the argument,- if you let modern bikes enter a classic based series you must make the sections harder? RUBBISH -If the good/ V good modern bike rider finds the sections boring,then he wont be back so problem solved, and if the average rider who happens to ride modern enjoys the trial then the organisers can count on his money next time.I dont see why, if a mono goes clean why it effects the marking out of a classic based trial? Happy trials

[scorpa3]

Here we go again -perhaps i,am missing something here but - is the argument,- if you let modern bikes enter a classic based series you must make the sections harder? RUBBISH -If the good/ V good modern bike rider finds the sections boring,then he wont be back so problem solved, and if the average rider who happens to ride modern enjoys the trial then the organisers can count on his money next time.I dont see why, if a mono goes clean why it effects the marking out of a classic based trial? Happy trials

I agree.

The only problem is that organisers and Clerks of the Course are under pressure to provide a result. I know how this feels, having been the Clerk of the Course for both Miller Classic trials and Novogar Championsip trials. You don't want too many people to clean the trial. So you find yourself under pressure to make the trial harder.... this pressure is difficult to resist.

That is why, as I wrote earlier in the thread, the timed special test gives the organisers a safety net if they get it wrong and make the trial too easy, which is how classic trials should be.... at least for the top riders. Then the lesser lights (or those on genuine classic machines) will enter.

[bilco]

Wanting to Please everyone thats total bull,add this route add that route before you know it we've got a total mess on our hand's.

If there's so many 0/40's and 0/50's on modern's looking for a championship trial why dont they create one instead of trying to hijack other trial's.

[nigel dabster]

The over 40 and then over 50 was added to the classic series to keep it viable.

It is only a few years back02??? that a round was cancelled in whitby and John Collins own round in wales because of lack of entries. Whether the classic series could survive without the entries I doubt it. There must be a solution but not too sure its perfect whatever it is.

Perhaps mike can tell us the numbers?

[scorpa3]

The over 40 and then over 50 was added to the classic series to keep it viable.

Whether the classic series could survive without the entries I doubt it. There must be a solution but not too sure its perfect whatever it is.

Trouble with this solution to the entries problem, is that it's self defeating for the Classic guys. To make the trial viable, O-40 + O-50's were allowed in, the sections then needed to be made harder for those riders and this in turn puts off the rank and file classic riders.

It looks as if we either have trials which are too easy for the modern bikes, or too hard for the (average) classic bikes. Which do we want?

[nigel dabster]

no you are wrong there the sections werent changed and that was fine, then word got round that there was some half decent trials for the over 40's and then it became more popular and competitive, then the pressure has been on to make it a challenge to the top over 40's, the standard of which has gone up, riders that is.

so as I see it we need a decent over 40 championship more than the twinshock one?

[woody]

I was going to stay out of this one as it has had chapter and verse in other topics and just goes round in circles - but - Just to dispel a few myths about section severity in the classic series, from someone who has been involved in it since it started.

The series used to be 2 routes, pre65 (2 classes) on easier route, twinshocks on harder route. The sections now are no harder than they were on the twinshock route back then. In fact, some of the trials back then were a darn site harder than they are now and there were regularly around 100 entries in each event. The only exception to date was the last Colchester round which I didn't ride but was generally deemed to be too hard. Some are actually too easy such as Cambourne, Doncaster Cup, Rosebowl, West of England - the former only took high scores this year as it p****d down from dawn to dusk making it a good event. If it hadn't though it would have been very easy.

Around mid 90s the ACU ruled that the series must only have one route which was never going to work. Sections became too hard for pre65 if ok for twinshock or too easy for twinshock if ok for pre65. I, like many others, was not prepared to travel 2-300 miles for a trial the equivalent of a local club trial B route in severity. Similarly, the pre65 riders weren't going to travel that distance to 3 and 5 everything and bend their bikes - just go and do the local trial instead if you fancy a ride out on the classic. Result - series decline with some rounds cancelled due to lack of entries - but mid to late 90s, not 02.

The sections at Bootle, Hillsborough, Peak, Torridge are just the same now as they ever were. Look at the results from some of the trials over the last few years and you'll see that the twinshock and pre65 winners are very often equal to or ahead of the modern classes. These trials haven't been tightened up to accomodate the later bikes. Any twinshock from the 70s on can cope with the sections. However, there is no doubt that you need a competitive pre65 to have a good go, as before, they had their own route.

The biggest problem is the single route format, if dual routes were in it would open the series to more riders, particularly on less modified pre65 bikes and riders of lesser ability on twinshocks

Edited June 1, 2007 by Woody

[scorpa3]

Thanks for that Woody. There's the answer from someone who has ridden inthe series for years.

[dale]

Wanting to Please everyone thats total bull,add this route add that route before you know it we've got a total mess on our hand's.

If there's so many 0/40's and 0/50's on modern's looking for a championship trial why dont they create one instead of trying to hijack other trial's.

Nobodys asking for different routes for modern bikes at a classic event - I am riding in Wye valleys Classic rds on a mono [0/40] and a better set out trial i,ve yet to find.As Dabster says it might not be viable without the modern bikes?I like the classic style trials as i cant hop,skip or jump the bike about, so how am i creating a "mess".At the end of the day if someone takes the time to set out a trial,they want a good entry,Happy trials

[bilco]

Fair enough dale,

If they need the modern's in there to keep it going then that's what they have to do i guess.

[paioli]

in the end its down to the clubs to get the sections right for the classic bikes first and foremost !

i also ride the wye valley series , two routes ,10 classes,no problems,great trials maybe they should

be running a classic round,they seem to know what there doing and have a large classic following,

unlike some clubs that i suspect have a large modern bike membership,hence the leaning to more

modern bike friendly sections,and modern marking!

[john collins]

I have quite enjoyed reading this post