totalshell Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 i dont know why the pre 65 scottish has chosen the rigids to be very specific over eligibility but it is a positive move. the more clearly defined rules are the less time this discussion will take and the more time will be spent riding old bikes.. as for who will police the rules thats simple, many on here have highlighted isssues with various bikes.. a little honesty box at the start of trials for bikes to be challenged anonomously would soon hi light those 'improper bikes' at yc we have a couple of eagle eyed members who are only to keen to high light such issues directly but politely to riders.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat slinn Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 One of the production race series in the late 70's /80's allowed the first three machines to be "looked at" and commented on by their fellow competitors. It was one of the cleanest series ever ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) i dont know why the pre 65 scottish has chosen the rigids to be very specific over eligibility but it is a positive move. the more clearly defined rules are the less time this discussion will take and the more time will be spent riding old bikes.. as for who will police the rules thats simple, many on here have highlighted isssues with various bikes.. a little honesty box at the start of trials for bikes to be challenged anonomously would soon hi light those 'improper bikes' at yc we have a couple of eagle eyed members who are only to keen to high light such issues directly but politely to riders.. One other "problem" would be trying to get a universal set of "rules" drawn up and adopted. Everybody thinks their clubs rules are the ones that everybody else should follow so nobody would agree and we are back to square 1. As for eagle eyed members highlighting directly to riders... and then ? OK for Yorks Classic as you have a clearly defined published rule book. If you ride you obviously agree with them if not you dont bother riding. You get very good entries already so not a problem for the club however we struggle for entries and cant afford to stick two fingers up to any potential entries. Also your club is apart from the VMCC the only club i know of that is affiliated to both the ACU and the AMCA and as such doesnt require a competition license to compete which must help a LOT with high entry numbers. Large entries mean you can be more picky about who rides what at your trials. Think the horse has already bolted plus the premise doesnt really float my personal boat so i personally dont feel very enthusiastic about all this originality stuff. Too much of that rubbish at Classic bike shows. I suppose too that i actually enjoy the re engineering aspect of getting something that was pretty awful in the first place to become actually competitive and fun to ride. Be interresting how many riders would actually prefer a pagent of original classic "trials" bike to riding in a competition as we have now? One last thing what is this obsession with fork gaitors at Yorkshire Classic and why when you are so tight about so many things do you let Cubs and just Cubs run a non pre65 dellorto or mikuni carb? Edited January 19, 2012 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat slinn Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 One other "problem" would be trying to get a universal set of "rules" drawn up and adopted. Everybody thinks their clubs rules are the ones that everybody else should follow so nobody would agree and we are back to square 1. As for eagle eyed members highlighting directly to riders... and then ? OK for Yorks Classic as you have a clearly defined published rule book. If you ride you obviously agree with them if not you dont bother riding. You get very good entries already so not a problem for the club however we struggle for entries and cant afford to stick two fingers up to any potential entries. Think the horse has already bolted plus the premise doesnt really float my personal boat so i personally dont feel very enthusiastic about all this originality stuff. Too much of that rubbish at Classic bike shows. I suppose too that i actually enjoy the re engineering aspect of getting something that was pretty awful in the first place to become actually competitive and fun to ride. One last thing what is this obsession with fork gaitors at Yorkshire Classic and why when you are so tight about so many things do you let Cubs and just Cubs run a non pre65 dellorto or mikuni carb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat slinn Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 ?oes you bike conform the the technical regulations of each event you enter it in ?, or do you cheat ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 ?oes you bike conform the the technical regulations of each event you enter it in ?, or do you cheat ? Assume you mean me Pat and yes my bike does. It has also passed scrutineering at the scottish pre65 plus it has alloy mudguards, not that that is in the regs, unlike most fitted with plastic. Does the bike YOU ride week in week out Pat conform to the technical regulations of each event you enter it in? Dont get the relivance of the question and object to your inferance that i may be a cheat. What is a cheat? Thats a heavy insinuation to level at any competitor unless you have corroberating evedence to support any such accusation. Please clarify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Cheat bike is a term that doesn't really apply any longer to a Pre65 bike and hasn't for some time As the modifications became commonplace and accepted over the years, rules were introduced to allow and police them, some of which are plain ridiculous but we won't get into that. And so we now have rules that allow the following: Replica frames from modern tubing Replica hubs and yokes from billet machining Pre65 fork sliders with modern internals up to max 35mm diameter stanchions So you can't call bikes built around the above criteria 'cheat bikes'. It is how Pre65 has evolved as a class and they are within those rules, the modernising is allowed - there is very little scope left in which to cheat (or need to try) Unless you can call using European or Japanese hubs, a pair of Ossa or Yamaha (in line spindle, look the same as MP) forks instead of 'hiding' them in some Norton or suchlike sliders, European or Japanese yokes, cheating. Hard to see how though as cheating implies gaining advantage by breaking rules and none of those give any advantage over the accepted billet replacements for those components - other than a reduced cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat slinn Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I do not wish things to get personal, if I have upset anybody I appoligize. Your reply shows that your bike conforms to the regulations, As for mine, well, I have not been able to ride a motorcycle on anything other than a smooth surface for a number of years. My trials machine is a C15 BSA and apart from having a electronic ignition system is in exactly the same technical spec as when I built it in 1964 and rode it in the Scottish in 1966. I was told by somebody I met last year at Wrightys show that as my bike has a one off frame made by me in 1964 it probably would not be allowed to start in the pre 65 Scottish, as the engine has no tubes beneath it!!, somebody else disputed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Cheat bike is a term that doesn't really apply any longer to a Pre65 bike and hasn't for some time As the modifications became commonplace and accepted over the years, rules were introduced to allow and police them, some of which are plain ridiculous but we won't get into that. And so we now have rules that allow the following: Replica frames from modern tubing Replica hubs and yokes from billet machining Pre65 fork sliders with modern internals up to max 35mm diameter stanchions So you can't call bikes built around the above criteria 'cheat bikes'. It is how Pre65 has evolved as a class and they are within those rules, the modernising is allowed - there is very little scope left in which to cheat (or need to try) Unless you can call using European or Japanese hubs, a pair of Ossa or Yamaha (in line spindle, look the same as MP) forks instead of 'hiding' them in some Norton or suchlike sliders, European or Japanese yokes, cheating. Hard to see how though as cheating implies gaining advantage by breaking rules and none of those give any advantage over the accepted billet replacements for those components - other than a reduced cost. with you totally on that Woody my thoughts exactly. Our club has now, for the first time, got a set of rules for both British Bikes and Twinshocks on our website. They might not be perfect but are up for discussion and if sensible suggestions are made i am prepared to modify them but at least they are a start and any rider can hopefully then have a guide to building a bike to suit. I have deliberately allowed for bikes built as you suggest using components that may not be period but at least look period, Ossa forks and yokes etc, to enable someone to build a British Bike at a reasonable cost and have fun on it. Did, to come back to the original premise of the post, have a guy turn up a while back on a beautiful C15 which was totally "illegal" c/w alloy tube frame sweeping around the engine like a race bike. Stunning engineering. When i asked why he simply said because i can and enjoy doing so but and heres the rub he was happy to ride just as a guest no points and he still didnt finish in the top 3. Remember it's not just about how trick your bike is but how you can ride. A good rider will always beat a crap one no matter what the bike they are riding. To be honest you dont need a fully tricked up bike to do well at one of our events as you well know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hi Guy's. LOOK, PRE65, Deryk, what did you start. This is not what I am getting at. If you want to go down that route all trials bikes from the first ever built have been cheat bikes, And factory bikes where never like you could buy over the counter, and they cheated by using each others parts in desqiuse, just like today. And has soon as you bought a bike you started modifieing it. Sam and GOV132 was the first real culprit in the public eye, has he blatently flaunted what he did with this bike while other factory riders covered up what they did to there bike. And I have always modified my bikes. Back to the plot} I repeat It just seems a shame that people building trials bikes up for this so called "Pre65" class of bike think that you have to build it to the specification for this one trial in Scotland, therefore having to buy all of the Very expensive billet parts and big bore kits etc, and pay to have continental and Japanese forks slipped into reworked British sliders, for know reason than a cosmetic whim by some individul. When a truly British fork that was designed in 1963-ish and is available cheaply(and does work OK), but is not allowed, in this one event, and then banned by other clubs because they are not allowed in Scotland. Has I have said the jist of the matter is that these type of bikes are being built at expence, and so need outings to prove there worth. OK ,but then sections are designed to cater for these bikes, in the rest of the trials across the land. And some poor guy turns up with his big banger out of the shed for a Sunday ride around and finds what he is asked to ride around horific. He tries a few of the sections and then asks for fives on the rest, exhausted he loads the bike back onto the rikety trailer he has borrowed. He stands watching with wonderment at these trick bikes and cant belive where they can get without penalty. One the way home he is thinking if he could perhaps get away with robbing a bank to finance one of these "New PRE65" bikes. and the old bike is trundeled off of the trailer and back into the shed (If it is lucky). and that is where it stops for the next ten years. So how do we get them back out into the open for a new(Old) life?????? :icon_salut: PS, sorry about the spelling but I have not got the time, I have bike mods to do. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_weedon Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Unless you can call using European or Japanese hubs, a pair of Ossa or Yamaha (in line spindle, look the same as MP) forks instead of 'hiding' them in some Norton or suchlike sliders, European or Japanese yokes, cheating. Hard to see how though as cheating implies gaining advantage by breaking rules and none of those give any advantage over the accepted billet replacements for those components - other than a reduced cost. Woody You consistently highlight the apparent double standards and I agree with you! My pre65 experience is minimal but I know at least to me some some of those bike are horrible to ride. I borrowed a B40 in Spain a couple years ago for practice, I think it was less than 45 minutes later I swapped bikes for a Cota 330 because I knew that Beesa was beating me black n blue! I however ride for the enjoyment no other reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_red_bike Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hi Guy's. LOOK, PRE65, Deryk, what did you start. This is not what I am getting at. If you want to go down that route all trials bikes from the first ever built have been cheat bikes, And factory bikes where never like you could buy over the counter, and they cheated by using each others parts in desqiuse, just like today. And has soon as you bought a bike you started modifieing it. Sam and GOV132 was the first real culprit in the public eye, has he blatently flaunted what he did with this bike while other factory riders covered up what they did to there bike. And I have always modified my bikes. Back to the plot} I repeat It just seems a shame that people building trials bikes up for this so called "Pre65" class of bike think that you have to build it to the specification for this one trial in Scotland, therefore having to buy all of the Very expensive billet parts and big bore kits etc, and pay to have continental and Japanese forks slipped into reworked British sliders, for know reason than a cosmetic whim by some individul. When a truly British fork that was designed in 1963-ish and is available cheaply(and does work OK), but is not allowed, in this one event, and then banned by other clubs because they are not allowed in Scotland. Has I have said the jist of the matter is that these type of bikes are being built at expence, and so need outings to prove there worth. OK ,but then sections are designed to cater for these bikes, in the rest of the trials across the land. And some poor guy turns up with his big banger out of the shed for a Sunday ride around and finds what he is asked to ride around horific. He tries a few of the sections and then asks for fives on the rest, exhausted he loads the bike back onto the rikety trailer he has borrowed. He stands watching with wonderment at these trick bikes and cant belive where they can get without penalty. One the way home he is thinking if he could perhaps get away with robbing a bank to finance one of these "New PRE65" bikes. and the old bike is trundeled off of the trailer and back into the shed (If it is lucky). and that is where it stops for the next ten years. So how do we get them back out into the open for a new(Old) life?????? :icon_salut: PS, sorry about the spelling but I have not got the time, I have bike mods to do. Regards Charlie. Hi Charlie i do not agree with your view that the trick bikes and sections are putting people off of riding the big old bikes.I ride every week and all the trials i ride at have two and sometimes three or four routes to chose from so whatever the bike or riding skill there is something to suit everyone.Also a lot of riders me included are not bothered about the scottish,why build a bike for one trial which you have a very slim chance of getting an entry in when you can ride any where else fifty two weeks a year with no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hi Charlie i do not agree with your view that the trick bikes and sections are putting people off of riding the big old bikes.I ride every week and all the trials i ride at have two and sometimes three or four routes to chose from so whatever the bike or riding skill there is something to suit everyone.Also a lot of riders me included are not bothered about the scottish,why build a bike for one trial which you have a very slim chance of getting an entry in when you can ride any where else fifty two weeks a year with no problem. :agreed: :agreed: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hi Guy's. Hi, Big-Red- Bike. I am not getting at people like you and glad you enjoy your riding. But How many bikes in the same catigory, as you are there in the trials you ride in, ??? 12- 24, or less, or more, ? or are there Fifty? there could be, if we could get these bikes back out in a social event, where every one was thinking along the same lines, Lets have a fun day out on our old bikes!! :thumbup: Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 What is the reason for diminishing numbers of big Pre-units nowadays? Take the Miller series as an example. The easy route is ideal for Pre-unit springers in standard trim as the same route has to allow for rigids and there are a few rigids competing for the last ??? number of years. So you don't need a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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