malibudon Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 copemech Posted Today, 12:29 AM I like good things that are simple and work form a design and engineering standpoint! And for reliability and maintenance! What can you fix sitting on the side of the road? Easily? Anyone had a load of bad dirty fuel in a Mont? You are fu---! I think that Copemech makes a very good point here. The majority of trials riders are do-it-yourselfers when it comes to maintenance and repair. I am decently mechanically inclined and if I have access to proper spares on the day of the event I can repair just about anything that may break on event day and continue to ride. The way the bikes are made now are relatively easy to diagnose the problem, if getting into throttle by wire now there are sensors, contact points, and more wires. if you crash in the water and the throttle is submerged what will that do to the throttle by wire? What I am trying to say is that the new technology is more difficult for the majority of riders to understand, the majority of riders are not 17-18 and totally interested in all things electronic. Majority I think are 25-50 and mechanically inclined. Just my opinion, and usually nobody cares anyways For me, I would rather have a reliable bike than one that's easy to repair. Both automobiles and motorcycles are far, far more complex and technologically advanced than they were 35 years ago...they are also incredibly more reliable. You may not be able to cobble together a roadside or trailside repair when something goes wrong, but that occurance is so rare, that I welcome the trade-off. If I submerge my bike in water, I don't expect the throttle-by-wire to be any more/less reliable than my electronic ignition. Personally, I'm not itching to get back to the days of points, condensors, magnetos and fouled plugs than I am to get back to the days of pilot jets, main jets, slides, choke circuits, floats, check valves, vents, compared to gas and go in any conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 I wonder if the obvious weight penalty of hydraulic 2-wheel drive (like the Yamaha WR 2-Trac) would be offset by the advantages of such a system on a trials bike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcr500 Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 copemech Posted Today, 12:29 AM I like good things that are simple and work form a design and engineering standpoint! And for reliability and maintenance! What can you fix sitting on the side of the road? Easily? Anyone had a load of bad dirty fuel in a Mont? You are fu---! I think that Copemech makes a very good point here. The majority of trials riders are do-it-yourselfers when it comes to maintenance and repair. I am decently mechanically inclined and if I have access to proper spares on the day of the event I can repair just about anything that may break on event day and continue to ride. The way the bikes are made now are relatively easy to diagnose the problem, if getting into throttle by wire now there are sensors, contact points, and more wires. if you crash in the water and the throttle is submerged what will that do to the throttle by wire? What I am trying to say is that the new technology is more difficult for the majority of riders to understand, the majority of riders are not 17-18 and totally interested in all things electronic. Majority I think are 25-50 and mechanically inclined. Just my opinion, and usually nobody cares anyways For me, I would rather have a reliable bike than one that's easy to repair. Both automobiles and motorcycles are far, far more complex and technologically advanced than they were 35 years ago...they are also incredibly more reliable. You may not be able to cobble together a roadside or trailside repair when something goes wrong, but that occurance is so rare, that I welcome the trade-off. If I submerge my bike in water, I don't expect the throttle-by-wire to be any more/less reliable than my electronic ignition. Personally, I'm not itching to get back to the days of points, condensors, magnetos and fouled plugs than I am to get back to the days of pilot jets, main jets, slides, choke circuits, floats, check valves, vents, compared to gas and go in any conditions. I have to agree with that but there is still something in me that cringes at the thought of oodles of computers all over any bike (expecially a trials bike) Just my opinion so its probably wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 I work on all types of modern technology on a daily basis in the auto industry. ABS, eletronic throttles , EFI, multi-stage airbags, electronic stability programs that operate your throttle and brakes for you so you are less likely to put your own stupid ar-- in a ditch!In my opinion, the bikes that are currently built for trials are soo specialty built for the "non' average rider, mostly at WTC level or near, that the truly average rider may have great difficulty coping with it! You see, everything is a trade off! There is no single solution to this delima, although there is at least an attempt with the things like the 4T Scorpa in the long ride configuration and the TRAIL version, what do you call it? And although that motor is a big lump, it still works! Hell, if the Honda motor was not such a rebuilt(read overbuilt) piece of motocross engineering, they could have put a battery pack on it instead ov capcitors so the friggin thing would run below 1200 rpm and not weigh a ton! There are only 5 true modern dedicated trials motors out there right now, with the #6 yet to be seen. The Gasser 2T, the Beta 2 and 4T, the Sherco 2 and 4T! The Gasser 4T is TBD! The 2T Scorps is a good running 20 + year design, but is not counted here! The others don't really qualify! I like good things that are simple and work form a design and engineering standpoint! And for reliability and maintenance! What can you fix sitting on the side of the road? Easily? Anyone had a load of bad dirty fuel in a Mont? You are fu---! I may be old enough to recall Amal's and Bing's, and Dellorto's are not all that much better, but it does not yet mean I need microchips on a trials bike, they should be totally banned in MHO, as the trials is still about Man and Machine(not electrinics) vs the Terrain, even in the indoor manmade events! And untill the point is reached that the tree huggers and the EPA government mandates absolutly require otherwise, it should be kept that way! pardon me for saying so mate, but you seem like a bit of Honda/Mont hater. did someone run over your dog with a 4rt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 I wonder if the obvious weight penalty of hydraulic 2-wheel drive (like the Yamaha WR 2-Trac) would be offset by the advantages of such a system on a trials bike? People who have ridden both the hydraulic 2WD Yamaha and the mechanical AWD Christini motorcycles seem to clearly prefer the Christini approach. I've only ridden the Christini, and it was truly a revelation. Would it be an advantage in trails? I'm not sure. Is it an advantage for trail riding? Absolutely! http://www.christini.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 pardon me for saying so mate, but you seem like a bit of Honda/Mont hater. did someone run over your dog with a 4rt? No, certain things are just over rated, cost too much, weigh too much. But the worst thing I dislike about the Montesa is that if you let the revs get low it flames out, Big Time! Seen it again yesterday when a mate tried to put his up a big angled slab and got slow at the top. Near pulled my back out trying to catch him! Them biches are not all that easy to start either once they flameout! Real pain in the butt! The simple fact of not being able to chug a trials bike down low is a real pisser! I have ridden the 4T Beta and all I can say is it seems to work very well. But it does seem the same thing happens if you do stall it! Mainly a 4T thing i think. You do have to have a bit of touch with them! The Scorpa and Sherco 4T's ,even with a conventional carb, run well. Probably not a good ider to try and wick them wide open off idle! But normal people don't do that under normal circumstances! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 I'd like to see some kind of anti gravity field generators and uhhh......an "ice cold adult beverage" dispenser.... Other than that, I think current technology is just fine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Probably not a good ider to try and wick them wide open off idle!But normal people don't do that under normal circumstances! Exactly, so why bring that straw man up? No one is talking about doing that. The fact is, when I cracked the throttle from idle on the Sherco 4T to go up a small step, it coughed and died. That doesn't happen on my 4RT. There are plenty of good things that can be said for the Sherco 4T, but its carb is not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 I deal with fly by wire and its strategy on a daily basis as an engineer at one of the not so big three. In a automobile and a truck there are certain fail safes that take place that I could find extreemly undesireable in a trials bike. FOR EXAMPLE! (here is a fun one) If you ever have the time try this test. Take the trottle body off of your fly by wire car. Totally remove it. Plug it in and turn your key to run. (dont try to start it) Have some one push the trottle pedal to open it up. Now take a number 2 pencil and put it in the throttle body. Have your buddy let off of the trottle. Watch how the throttle body will Chew the H#LL out of the pencil. This is acutally extreemly funny to watch and for the most part does not hurt the throttle body. This is called ice breaker mode and is in place to do just that, break ice. Now if your throttle body fails on a car and it goes into this mode the car bucks and jerks a bit but ehh its a couple thousand pounds and nothing really happens. If this happens on a road bike ehhh it will probably shut the fuel off and you coast over to the side of the road. If this happens on a trials bike just before your hitting that log that you barely got to last time because its at the top of a huge hill.... ut oh... In the auto industry we use fly by wire to modify fuel economy, make cruise control, enable traction control, ect..... We have abs on almost any vehicle you purchase today because 98% of the bozo's cant figure out how to find traction after the brakes lock up. Which brings me to my point.... Trials riders know how to find traction! Trials riders understand throttle control! Fuel injection is good because it works to our advantage being simple and automatically adjustable for conditions. I think electric is the way to go in the future. A front and rear hub motor utilizing super caps (which you will see in vehicles in the not to distant future) and a small displacment generator. Algorythim similar to the Segway to help you keep ballance! Totally feasible. Regenerative brakeing. Bing! 50kg's? Easy. Keep the weight on the wheels and require less of the suspension if you can control the unladend weight. I have a module in my office that can do that no problem and weigh less than 2 pounds. <<<< I have been thinking of this one ever since I left college. Ok enough rant I need to get back to work. --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Yea, and you would think that if I can illuminate the inside of the trailer all night on a cordless phone battery that weighs about 2 oz, you could keep a Mont running below 1000 revs for more than a second on those caps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Probably not a good ider to try and wick them wide open off idle!But normal people don't do that under normal circumstances! Exactly, so why bring that straw man up? No one is talking about doing that. The fact is, when I cracked the throttle from idle on the Sherco 4T to go up a small step, it coughed and died. That doesn't happen on my 4RT. There are plenty of good things that can be said for the Sherco 4T, but its carb is not one of them. Were both bikes set at the same idle speed? My 4T never done that from idle when cranked open . I had it set around 1000 rpm at tickover. Even when I changed it to a Keihin, it never done it either. I would like to see a trials bike with a w ankel engine. I reckon they would be puuurrrrfect for trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 I would like to see a trials bike with a w ankel engine. I reckon they would be puuurrrrfect for trials. Atoms new trials bike. A bit heavy but he can learn to unload more... --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcr500 Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 (edited) I would like to see a trials bike with a w ankel engine. I reckon they would be puuurrrrfect for trials. Atoms new trials bike. A bit heavy but he can learn to unload more... --Biff i havent ridden an RE5 but I have a mate who has a norton rotary (well several actually). Those engines are seriously good. I don't know of any that have been built small enough to fit in a tirals but theoretically there is no limit to how small they could be made. I imagine a 125 or 250 is quite possible and when you consider that they put out a remarkable power for displacement a 250 rotary would have about the same bhp as maybe a 400 so a 125 would work fine. Not sure how much they would suited to trials though as i beleive you dont get as much torque from them. I really struggled to get my head round how they work until i saw this a few years ago: Edited September 28, 2007 by madcr500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Were both bikes set at the same idle speed? My 4T never done that from idle when cranked open . I had it set around 1000 rpm at tickover.Even when I changed it to a Keihin, it never done it either. Each engine was set to its appropriate idle speed. And, again, it happened to me on both the '05 and the '07, and I saw it happen to another rider on the '07. It's no big deal...it behaved as you'd expect from a carbureted 320cc four-stroke dirt bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Not sure how much they would suited to trials though as i beleive you dont get as much torque from them. From Wikipedia: Compared to piston engines, the time available for fuel to be injected into a ****el engine is significantly shorter, due to the way the three chambers rotate. The fuel-air mixture cannot be pre-stored as there is no intake valve. This means that to get good performance out of a ****el engine, more complicated fuel injection technologies are required than for regular four-stroke engines. This difference in intake times also causes ****el engines to be more susceptible to pressure loss at low RPM compared to regular piston engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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