jtt Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 You could be the Dick Trickle of United States Trials. Ringo? More like Dirk Diggler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted January 26, 2005 Report Share Posted January 26, 2005 The high points only serve to frustrate the riders who do 3s and 5s for the event, not much fun factor! My Opinon, as compared to yours, not a flame! I dont know for sure why/how you come to this conclusion? I Just dont think this is true, at least of most people. Well ok, the ones this is likely true about, well they dont compete, or they stay in lower classes and the day's fun is the mere fact that they rode. Thats off topic IMHO because most of these guys ride when it is convieniant and all that too. I want to think, most trials riders are die hards and competitors, I think... I could be wrong, I too get tired of picking myself and the bike up after the 5 (or sometimes a string of them) at some meets. But I dang well like winning or beating the next guy by getting a 2 somewhere, instead of the 3 he got during the same event, instead of him cleaning every section... or vice versa. (I say this for classes below master/champ & maybe expert of course) IMHO, I think if your consistantly scoring below 10 points for the winner or top3, on 8 sections average- ridden 3 times, that class is NOT really challenging you or the competitors. This is more discouraging to me as a rider, to get sub 20 points, and get 5th or not place, IMHO. Maybe at 39 Im toooooo old school? Seems the rewards have been moved in trials as of late... PAR (golf term) for a section, for many must be zero points Even on lap one? To me Par is 3, a 2 or a1 is like a birdie, 0 like an eagle... Then on lap2, everything moves up a bit... so instead of a 3 being par, I expect maybe a 2, because I should have learned something on lap one... Yada Yada lap3 I hope some sections I can set par to be even better (some cleans). BTW, a hole in one, is when nobody else cleaned that section all day, that you did... But that is just me I supppose. Maybe I am just stupid or unique and misjudged the rest of my competitiors natural ability, and how they seem to really enjoy beating the section AND me (good natured ya know) Again, for the record... I hate 'nerve racking' 5pt winner, trials days, where one slip cost you the whole day! To me that is more discouraging than having picked up 43 points and the winner picked up 41... now granted, when the winner got 20 and I got 43, it takes more "mentality" to not give it all up I guess, but I usually try a lot harder for the next month, practicing bike prep whatever... and I have! But to me, I thin you think Most riders, is instead of thinking I should move down a class, or give up... I think I have just formulated a poll question... If I get this edited and posted before I decide to keep my opinions to myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted January 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Sting, I'm posing a question about the big picture, not my own riding preferences. The topic is about National championship and world championship, the USA has three riders of five in the champ class this year. All monies generated by trials is by clubmen buying bikes, clothing, and spares, a major expenses for the manufacturer, importer, dealer, are spent on sponsorship and providing machines and backup at the nationals and world championships. A good dealer and local expert can probably influence a person to buy a brand of motorcycle in any given area better than watching a few riders compete in the world championship. I'm not saying trials shouldn't be a challenge, and nothing wrong at all with a tough trial, but when the numbers get as low as they are at top level, then I think some problems need addressing, in my opinion, the two reasons having the most impact on the champ entries are cost and section severity. At club level, any club worth it's salt should soon figure out the ability level of it's members, and cater for them accordingly. It wasn't long ago half the entry at a US national rode the champ class, and world rounds had entries over 50 riders, bike sales were better than now, and more riders got sponsorship, why!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylael Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 (edited) Strange as it sounds today, I was trolling for a factory ride. I had borrowed quite a bit to ride the few nationals that I was in say in 1976 and '77, and when no ride was forthcoming, I was done. It took years to pay back the loans. How many rich folks are out there who can afford to travel all over the country? Just the thought of driving my beater Dodge van to the east coast gives me the chills. Not to mention tumbling backwards down a rocky chasm, with a trials bike comin' after me. People want to have FUN, especially if they are spending their precious vacation days, their family time and hard earned money too! At age 17 I was fool enough to believe that sponsorship was a possibility, but now clearly when there's no chance of that the only remaining incentive for doing this is the fun of it. To experience life and to meet people and go outside your rut for a change. That's what sane people want out of trials in my view. Ishy has brought up a very important question here. Why are the champ riders falling by the wayside? Expense and too hard sections. Problem is they have such low scores even with really hard sctions then the tight time limits make it stressfull and dangerous. Where is the fun in that? In the '70's sections were hard, but they had straight on big climbs that required alot of guts and horsepower. That spells fun in my book. Just one example of things being different today. Edited January 27, 2005 by JayLael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Sting, I'm posing a question about the big picture, not my own riding preferences. Ok, Im lost In a way...? BTW, I was commenting on trialsurfer's comment that people may seem likely to quit if they get high scores, or cant get much more than 3's and Fives... OK Im on a seperate issue, Club level riders... </Rant on that now over> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) Following up on MY last post... Here's how you fix trials... Since the train's already left the station, the bird has left the cage... BTW just some history... It wasn't that long ago, in the early 80's or late 70's, I remember when there was a stink about the opposite way back when? Anyway few really TOP riders & some support people were complaining that the clubs in america were too easy at the top levels, and how in the USA nothing was TOUGH enough in highest classes-competitions to prepare our top riders for Pro World Competitons... Well now the highest competition levels are higher, but oh so few reach it, almost none could do it without some kind of monetary support, thanks to moving into the era Paying to ride (pro) and all that. Go figure... Well what now? Can you imagine, doing what dougie did this year at Minnesota, without PRO support status? I cannot. But I think I could compete against "similiarly prepared" riders, in a real trials, like the Heydays, where AMATURES, not PROs did the competing. lets fix it this way, NO MORE PRO RIDERS, NO MORE CUSTOM "WORKS" bikes in competition. no more 6 person crew to follow Dougie or Adam to the gym every day, and the rest of the day fixing the special bikes that they ride... You see, to me it is fairly simple, To sell large amounts of anything that is, so unusable for anything else, is what a trials bike is, needs to be cheaper and still durable, this would make the prospect more favorable. Trials bikes that were cheaper than the plain old bikes you see on the floor of say your local bike shop, that I think is the key to playing "catchup." Lets consider what it costs Montesa to flip the bill on what, 6 riders on specially configured ---UNSTOCK--- Motorcycles? FYI, that support money comes from customers who pay "extra" for already figured into the price prices. yea, there's going to be trade off's again, like slower paced technology jumps maybe, but more people in to a "cheaper because it has to" sport would be a good thing... I argued about this for years, BTW, that they need to make KIDS bikes almost free (in a sense) because like me, like my dad, like you: I dont get to ride all by myself, I dont have the "time." I must make time for me and the kids. So to make this a win win, I got my kid a bike, and we embark on this bonding journey, just like my father had to do back when... To me, they way to get this going in a hell of a hurry, they could cut costs way down. IF a factory wants to see or show thier wares and bikes suitability (win on sunday sell on monday) maybe? I think it would be cheaper to "give" lease of "bone stock" bikes to *TOP AMATURE* riders, as they choose much like they do now for pro? But I recall factory bikes being destroyed back when... Anyway to keep this from going nuts, after each year, you have to sell them off, either renewed or at the discount like a 1 year old bike is now anyway, this is so Sponsors like Montesa, dont lose the whole 6-7 thousand dollars (value of the bike is now, when new). But again these bikes, without the "factory" supporting race teams with big budgets, how much could we cut off the price of a bike? I could be all wet, but I would bet things would be better... Edited January 28, 2005 by Sting32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted January 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) I think it will sort itself out soon, I used to think we had to do more before it all went south. The west costs PNTA series, Ryon Bell and Wilson Craig retiring out of competition, leaving only the odd rider that could even attempt the sections they used to ride in the champ class, so in all but name that class has been dropped and the section level will drop to that of the expert class. Having put a few nationals on I have seen that points can be taken off the top riders while still allowing those riders who are not at that level yet, a valid attempt at the sections, I have also seen just what stops all but the top one or two even making an attempt. It has been happening in world championships for some time and they are trying to fix it by adding classes, Junior, 125, ladies, champ, this has not worked in the US national championship, the only effect it had, was making the support classes grow, and the same will happen in world events. If a championship event needs three levels of lines to attract a decent turnout of entries, I think the same could be achieved by using the middle line for the top riders and the lower line for the support, and the year end results would be close to the same, but tighter. A challenge to FIM, ACU, NATC, or any other governing body, dropp the championship class to the next level down and see how that class grows, not only by allowing the good riders a crack at the top 5, but also inspiring the young lads to give a go. Edited January 28, 2005 by ishy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Ish, The evidence that you are on the right idea track with that post, is blindingly clear to me also. Let me add: I think about this part (another thread being discussed about making a trials movie/video that hopefully could be used to introduce and to entice or attract newer riders) the mere fact that everyone that has contributed to the thread more or less agrees that it really really needs to show and focus on what average joe can forsee as do-able. Maybe more emphasis for getting Pampera-type or scorpa Long ride type of bike & riders into trials, is the way to go? I dont know the figures on sales, but except for MOTO-x & street, what selling? I think (due to ignorance of sales facts and figures) that maybe the future is people who buy just plain ol casual use dirt bikes, & more each year seem to have done it, arent doing so thinking they can do a back flip, it is just because riding is looking like fun. Now to get them doing trials, then getting the bikes... that is the hitch I havent figured out exactly. PS... I stumbled into this 3rd Idea, as I typed this post... Ponder this one unfortunately because Motocross involves full faced helmets, you dont see the stress these guys are under, like you do when Dougie is walking and or riding the section... Total concentration and stress or worry looks... Hey maybe that is the key here, the helmets? could it be that Everyone assumes Ricky Carmichael is smiling the whole 20 lap main event, so they want a MX bike? Sure, Extreme draws a crowd, so do accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted January 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) What the hell is Ishy on about!! taking the top five riders in the world/country and make them ride down a class, buggers won't loose a dab. Probably true! if they have the advantage they have now, pre walking the sections getting their man to help out with the landscaping, then being able to leave at the back of the field when all the sections are nicely treaded in, along with the rest of the support crew which could number more than the total entry twice. Unlike the poor lad trying to make it in the big time, his knackered old van still venting steam over in a remote corner of the paddock! only just got there in time to weigh in and get his gear on, after a mad dash to the event after work and the affore mentioned van pigging out on the freeway, no hot shower and cappuccino for this lad, it's scoop down the can of cold beans and crank the bugger into life! thas late. The truth is the top end of the sport is geared to the big teams, and for such a small sport the advantage is tremendous, if the playing field was leveled, and once the event started all riders were in the same boat, no minders, no spare bikes to rob parts off, start times drawn for all riders and not grouped, no pre course inspection, then I think the severity of the sections could be lowered, not only would eased sections allow more riders to compete, it would also allow riders to ride longer. Don't get me wrong, I'm still talking sections way over the majorities head just eased enough to make them feasible by a few more riders. Edited January 30, 2005 by ishy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Awesome post Ishy! Two things ring in my mind about all of this stuff! #1- I was that guy with the knackered van who barely made it to the event, barely got my gear on in time to ride and still had some decent rides! #2- Your right about the section severity being lowered once the playing field is leveled! I would dare to say that some of the results would be surprising! The only alarming thing to me about all of this, is, that the buggers who are still around and riding half decent (at least in the Pacific Northwest, are bloody old now) We need to get some new blood into the sport at the bottom levels! Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Ray Peters, at 31 I believe, is the current veteran in the PRO class here in the states(if he rides PRO this year), although Geoff may be close to the same age. I recall Ray saying several years ago that he was getting tired of "throwing his body" at the large obsticles and that would probably be his downwall in the end at making attempts at the US championship. I agree with Ish that more points could be had without increasing the size of the obsticles Ray was referring to and would promote more riders attempting the route. Just my opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringo Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 If your going to go, GO BIG. If your going to wine, buy yourself one of those fancy motorized banshee wheelchairs and take your sorry a.. to glamis. "Here's how you fix trials" Now that's funny!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 If your going to go, GO BIG.If your going to wine, buy yourself one of those fancy motorized banshee wheelchairs and take your sorry a.. to glamis. "Here's how you fix trials" Now that's funny!!! WTH is glamis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d. sileo Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Glamis is Dunes........Lots of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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