the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I have ridden the 125 Sherco and 125 Scorpa both for more than six month each, I will agree with you that the off the shelf trail bike motor wasn't as good as the 125 trials motor, but it wasn't far off, Sherco based the 3.2 on the two stroke bottom end, will they make a 250, 125 I don't know ? How do they restrict section severity at world championship level, one way would be to restrict the bikes which they are doing and creating eased lines for those bikes, or if the rules state all youth riders must be on 125 four strokes, then you will again be saying it's amazing what they can do on those things. Why is the negative always the reply, it can't be done on one of those, the two stroke will always be better, well get your two stroke up to the ssdt next year and we'll see how much better it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud Posted July 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 There will be a 280cc kit for the Mont very soon, the works bikes are almost certainly at least 280cc and the old works mono RTL of saunders and Lejeune were 270cc, so it seems the optimum capacity for a trials 4 stroke is around 270-300cc (in Honda's eyes at least) Is this official where can i read about this kit? Out of all the bike brands, and this is going to sound controversal, Gas Gas is the brand i think will make the best (not the most reliable) modern 4t. A high reving 300cc motor in a super light chassis with fuel injection..... to say Gas Gas are indeed luck not have the constraints of a donor engine and their out right qwest for lightness is right way forward when i read the british bike comments above. Does anyone know how much a cub weigh's? The Mont is 73.8kg. my conclusions so far for the 'optiumum' 4t are: very light bike, high reving, engine, 270 - 350cc - the less weight the smaller engine needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 (edited) Hmmm. Have you tried that with your Windows operating system ? No but remember we are talking about motorcycles, we all know there are numerous bugs in operating systems for PC's. Have a look at all the modern bikes and cars - its unlikely you will find a vehicle with as common faults as I am lead to believe some of the modern fourstrokes have (going on what is written on this site anyway). Twenty years ago perhaps. reading the problems many owners seem to be having its surprising that any more of these bikes are being sold - yes they may be wonderful to ride BUT the bike is no use if you cant start it or repair it if it fails. I am a fourstroke fan, road bikes, MX bikes and trials bikes but at the moment I have yet to be convinced a better 4stroke trials bike than the TLR or RTL Hondas is on sale (The SY125 perhaps). I have not ridden any of the new bikes but am defining better as starting/reliability/build quality & the suitability for home repair . Edited July 4, 2005 by g4321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 (edited) Ive had from new 2 problems with my 4t. One which was resolved quite quickly and one which is getting sorted. The first being the fault with cables coming from the generator being too tight and chaffing on the sharp edge of the casing. Thats been replaced and smoothed off and now no problems. To be fair, this shouldnt of happened as its obvious to any engineer this would be a problem! The other is the starting... However im a lot better at it now than when I first got it. A decent bit of instruction from Sherco in the form of a comprehensive Handbook wouldnt have gone amiss!! Otherwise the bike has been faultless in all respects AND a very enjoyable bike to ride. My wife worked for a peugeot dealer for 2 years and the amount of faults on new cars was staggering. I know theres more to go wrong on a car but we are talking about a HUGE company with HUGE resources! My only gripe is the lack of a decent Handbook and Manual. After all CE certification that I have to follow when I design a machine that gets shipped to spain requires a full and comprehensive manual in the local language to comply! Why doesnt trial bikes have to comply when they are shipped here? Edited July 4, 2005 by Webmonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 (edited) I have owned and ridden the Sherco 3.2 for the past month, ridden three trials changed the oil three times, checked the valve adjustment, ridden it just about every day since getting it and not had any problems. Now the Scorpa 125 that you say with high build quality had new clutch lever, knurled plates, exhaust modding, jetting, then the bike would ride half decent, and it still wasn't a fraction of the trials bike the Sherco is. Now you two get on here and tell us it's a wonder they sell, and were released 6 months too soon, when the truth is you know SFA about the bike, never ridden one properly and don't own one. What bikes do you own and ride regulary in trials, or is riding ******* trials also something you don't actualy do. Edited July 4, 2005 by ishy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 (edited) ******* trials. Hmm..... Not enough letters for observed trials Not enough for motorcycle trials Too many for modern trials Oooooh Matron, just worked it out Edit: Cancel my last - just worked it out - regular trials Edited July 4, 2005 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 (edited) What bikes do you own and ride regulary in trials, or is riding ******* trials also something you don't actualy do. Sorry to have upset 'Ishy' but all I did was make some comments on the numerous posts written on the Montesa and the Sherco. I was JOKINGLY remarking tha given the negative feedback by many of the writers on this site on particularly the Sherco perhaps the TLR or original RTL or even a P65 bike would be a better bet! Nothing personal since by the sounds of things Ishy has not had any problems with his Sherco. I do try to ride trials - I know I am no good but who cares its usually quite enjoyable even to finish at the bottom of the pile. I have two TLR250's , one in a Golner Monoshock frame & an XR500 (ie i dont like 2 strokes!) and some roadbikes (3 of the 6 roadbikes are 2 strokes, I am embarassed to admit) Me I would love a new Sherco or Honda but after reading what everyone is writing about them on here I would not be prepared to buy one AT THE MOMENT (even if i could justify the cost). As for a fuel injected bike - no thanks, notat the moment since there is not a lot of maintenance you can do on that yourself if it fails. Gordon Edited July 5, 2005 by g4321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 (edited) Nice to see your a 4 stroke fan so you cant be all that bad The 2 stroke engine is still a remarkable engine.. but for sheer design, the best engine has got to be the ****el rotary engine ( except for the rotor tip wear). Would like to see what one of them could do in a trials bike.. They rev till they blow! Edit: Lol.. posted this then noticed that Dr Felix had his name bleeped out if you want to see an animation of a rotary engine then type this link in http://www.keveney.com/****el.html replacing the four * with the correct word as this forum edits it out. Edited July 5, 2005 by Webmonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 The Sherco 4t i've been told has a lot better grip in the wet then the Mont 4rt,and its lighter than the Mont, and there are more universal parts. Hope this pleases you Sherco 4t owners I own a Mont..... .....now everyone calm down, PLEASE! Okay, if anyone wants to add a comment about my 'so far' conculsion for the optimum 4-stroke trials bike (polite comments only), please do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james111089 Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Also what would you have the youths ride, a trailie 4 stroke? Oh yes they have that scorpa already, there is no way that a 125 4t is getting any where near the 125 GG and Shercos can do in the UEM rounds. Look at what Gubian has done since switching to Sherco. providing the gas gas will start! James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 very much off subject! the best engine has got to be the ****el rotary engine ( except for the rotor tip wear). Would like to see what one of them could do in a trials bike.. They rev till they blow! Having watched the Norton (and Roton) race bikes both on short circuits and on the Isle of Man (particularly with the late great Steve Hislop) I have got to agree that the Rotary was a brilliant race engine (perhaps a bit extreme for trials! - the flames out of the exhaust would burn the section markers). If the rules had not been changed perhaps they would still have been a competetive mount in the Uk and on the World scene. I thought Norton had solved rotor tip wear by using cast iron. The Norton F1 is one road bike I would love to own and ride - I would even contemplate selling one of my bikes to buy that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrfun Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Watched Trevor Nation riding the Norton Rotary at the Goodwood Festival of Speed 2yrs ago, on the line wind it up, up, up & then some more, drop the clutch the thing stood on end & disapeared up the track the crowd were gobsmacked & the noise was deafening. Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 (edited) I have got to agree that the Rotary was a brilliant race engine (perhaps a bit extreme for trials! - Only extreme because it was tuned for racing. Consider a toned down version. ! The engines are very light, lots of power and smooth delivery. Even less moving parts than a 2 stroke! why not develop one for a trials bike? sorry, I know its off topic, back on topic now Edited July 6, 2005 by Webmonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jools Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 There will be a 280cc kit for the Mont very soon, the works bikes are almost certainly at least 280cc and the old works mono RTL of saunders and Lejeune were 270cc, so it seems the optimum capacity for a trials 4 stroke is around 270-300cc (in Honda's eyes at least) Th 280 big bore kit for the 4rt has been out since beginning of the year and apparantly costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jools Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 The main reasons 250cc is the optimum capactity for a production 4 stoke machine, has to do with longetivity of the motor, heat dissipation, and of course weight. also it's production volume! Those 4rt engines are modified XR/CR 250f engines, same with the scorpa - yamaha WR/YZ engines. If your producing high volumes of these engines to the genera public, the trials engine will be modified ignition etc. could be 250 because thats their best sellin 4T engine and also keep the weight down and noise!! Those huge companies wont bother spending money producing an engine (for much more limited market compared to enduro/mx) when they can modify an existing engine that can be easily built in batch. The factory engines are tweeked by HRC, they not gonna be standard!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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