sirdabalot Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I had an ATK motocross bike in the late 1980's, the early one with an air cooled Rotax 500 4 stroke engine. This had a hydraulic disc brake system on the gearbox output shaft inboard of the gearbox sprocket. I remember the brake lacked progressiveness in operation, being either on or off, something I have also noticed on large plant vehicles equipped with transmission brakes. The brake disc wore quickly presumably as the disc was about 4" diameter so less metal meant more wear as it had less surface area to do the required work, this could also have been due to dirt being thrown onto it by the chain. I never had trouble with gearbox or chain oil contamination. One thing of note was when I went to register the bike for road use. The vehicle inspector at the local DVLA centre told me the wheels had to have a direct acting brake to be legitimate for road use, under construction and use regulations. The reason being, if the drive chain snapped, the rear brake would have no connection to the rear wheel. I got round it by fitting a conventional rear brake set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thats_a_five Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I am no engineer so I wonder if you mean a hydraulic brake system using vanes and rotors or adding a wet plate clutch (similar to the engine clutch we already have) to the output shaft? Could the brake lever come directly out of the case eliminating master and slave cylinders and hose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiris Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) This topic is really cool and valuable. In my opinion, there is just one clear future for trials bikes - fully electric drive. We often ride where are a lot of people around, in crowdy places, among skaters, in parks and etc. So, we obviously crave to be rather silent and exclude pollution. Moreover, electric mechanisms have a lot of simple things to be applied. For example - energy recuperation while braking. It hardly can exclude brake systems, but could help to stop effectively. I am not so familiar to these e-motors, but know we can create an opposite force just changing polarity. Recently I have discovered e-bikes. The solutions employed there are quite cheap, not complex enough. I see the future in this idea. What else. When the bike is moving passively stopping, the energy goes to heat. Do we need excessive heat? Yep, in winter. But we can collect the energy and reverse it into light or electo back. We can gather energy even from the front wheel. We can transfer motor's heat to the batteries which love it in cold conditions. Yes, e-motors are still not so powerful and the range of riding is relatively short. Some ideas for e-bikes. 1) include small motors into the wheels' hub in addition to the main motor (regeneration, braking, front wheel drive) 2) full in the frame' tubes with batteries 3) use two main motors (may be more power and reliability) 4) use the clutch mechanism as we used to use 5) add flywheel (to simulate gas engines) 6) use motors which have more energy efficiency 7) use 2-3 gearbox OR even CTV Electric things are less complicated, more modern. Today we know about Tesla Motors. Here in Russia you can drive a Tesla car at least 300 km and then fully recharge the battery for $2.5. So, e-tech bikes will be more beneficial. Regarding braking thru the motor's shaft and the chain, it hardly can afford to ignore the rear brake system, because it will perform not so rapidly. All the ideas you have suggested above are linked to complexity and weight. I guess that your ideas hardly will be realised, because the market is the biggest obstacle. All manufacturers will force their old technologies while we buy their bikes. Edited January 10, 2014 by osiris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I truly think the e bike is coming, it's just a matter of time but .... Many of us just love the smell, the sound, the character of a gas engine Engines stir the soul in a way an electric motor cannot, I think some people would quit riding if they had to use e bikes Certainly a generational thing, maybe 10 years from now there will be a kid who has never ridden a gas engine bike and thinks they are for old people, the problem is the battery, not the electric motor and it will change one day when a battery break through happens I remember a saying about radical new ideas "if at first it does not sound absurd, there is no hope" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Electric motors give lots of options and they are the best option for trials in the future for sure.When you look at a modern trials bike there are lots of areas that could be improved with enough time and money. The big question is whether any money can be made at it? If there is, I'm in 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiris Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Many of us just love the smell, the sound, the character of a gas engine Engines stir the soul in a way an electric motor cannot, I think some people would quit riding if they had to use e bikes I love the smell of a 2T engine from the times I was 10 and drove and maintained carts. But today smog causes eye sore, because our city's environment consists of pollution only. Now an e-bike gives absolutely different feelings, no doubt, and that is a challenge to save how a gas trials bike propels us. I would be happy to take part in any development process of e-bikes, that is my honest dream, especially when my IT job becomes boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 So you want to be an IT guy on E Bikes You might still be bored LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 I would think the last thing you would want on a trials bike is more complex electrics - electricity and water don't mix well. The inboard wet brake is well established on tractors and other off road equipment. An in gearbox wet disc brake on a trials bike wold be relatively simple and probably much longer lasting and more reliable than present systems. Would also reduce unsprung weight and what weight there was would be low and central. The drawback may be legal issues due to chain and possible lack of sensitivity for same reason. Another alternative is to retain the disc on the rear wheel but operate pad movement by a rod or cable linkage and ACME type screws. his does away with hydraulics which can give problems and is hard to fix during an event. A system worth investigating would be to incorporate the reservoir, master and slave cylinders in the same casting on the rear caliper and operate them by rod or cable from the foot pedal. This does away with a lot of components and still provided the self adjusting properties of hydraulic systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ok I would think the last thing you would want on a trials bike is more complex electrics - electricity and water don't mix well. The inboard wet brake is well established on tractors and other off road equipment. An in gearbox wet disc brake on a trials bike wold be relatively simple and probably much longer lasting and more reliable than present systems. Would also reduce unsprung weight and what weight there was would be low and central. The drawback may be legal issues due to chain and possible lack of sensitivity for same reason. Another alternative is to retain the disc on the rear wheel but operate pad movement by a rod or cable linkage and ACME type screws. his does away with hydraulics which can give problems and is hard to fix during an event. A system worth investigating would be to incorporate the reservoir, master and slave cylinders in the same casting on the rear caliper and operate them by rod or cable from the foot pedal. This does away with a lot of components and still provided the self adjusting properties of hydraulic systems Lack of 'sensitivity' could be an issue as you say. I hear your comments about retaining the disc but the whole idea here is to remove the need for it because of the problems associated with it (i.e contamination and indifferent performance when wet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I would think the last thing you would want on a trials bike is more complex electrics - electricity and water don't mix well. The inboard wet brake is well established on tractors and other off road equipment. An in gearbox wet disc brake on a trials bike wold be relatively simple and probably much longer lasting and more reliable than present systems. Would also reduce unsprung weight and what weight there was would be low and central. The drawback may be legal issues due to chain and possible lack of sensitivity for same reason. Another alternative is to retain the disc on the rear wheel but operate pad movement by a rod or cable linkage and ACME type screws. his does away with hydraulics which can give problems and is hard to fix during an event. A system worth investigating would be to incorporate the reservoir, master and slave cylinders in the same casting on the rear caliper and operate them by rod or cable from the foot pedal. This does away with a lot of components and still provided the self adjusting properties of hydraulic systems I think in the past electronics were hard to seal but it's not so hard to get around nowadays Electric sump pumps live underwater, you can buy R.C. Trucks that will operate underwater, watches, cameras and phones can be waterproof, boats have 12v electric drives built into the Hull to maneuver at the dock, they are permanently under water, even salt water Snowmobiles and watercraft exist in a steamy environment long term with mo ill effects, they have fly by wire throttle and TPS etc etc I have always advocated fewer parts means less problems, integrated drive and brake be it electric or mechanical would be the breakthrough How about a hybrid, we put a small displacement extremely light engine running a generator and charging a large capacitor, integrate the drive with the wheel and include a magnetic brake that returns energy to the system Then we introduce a 2 wheel drive class cuz now all we need to do is install a drive in the front hub and plug it in Dadof2 will head up engine development, Osiris can work with the software and we have a plethora of test riders on here Let's go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.