Original Pre-65 Class

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Firstly I must thank TT Spudfor two days of lively discussion.

So what have we gleaned from this?

Is there's problem?Arewe letting hundreds of Classic British Trials bikes rot in corners of sheds across the land? Because there is not a trial that is appropriate for these bikes to compete in?

Well firstly most of the Classic British Trials bikes I know,are probably kept has an investment.

Got outand polished occasionally,with probably there past riders now to old to compete.

I do keep getting my ear bent from people that actually think along the same lines as TT but,like me cannot find a simple solution to a problem that most people think does not exist.

I think the current trials format of most clubs rules out having these machines compete on a level playing field, along with other so called Pre 65 machines.

The answer is, in my mind,to forget a very competitive situation ,and try and get an entry of machines of this nature ,out for a Sunday morning ride, around an old quarry, or forestry land with easy access for both competitors (And I do mean that loosely) and any general public that may be interested in the sight and sound of Historic Classic British Trials bikes.

Run the event more has a gymkhana than a fiercely competitive trial.

This is just my waffling, but I must admit it has touched. A raw nerve.

(Look up motor gymkhana)

Regards Charlie.

[old trials fanatic]

Agreed Charlie. I get my ear bent on a regular basis about this subject too but do the people ever turn up? No. I have offered to lay out sections for them. Do they ever turn up? No. I have offered to put on a class for them. Do they ever promise to turn up ? No. Ive even suggested they come along when I'm laying out for the trial to make sure the sections would be suitable or at least a route for them would be. Do they turn up ? HAVE A GUESS !!!!

Most of them seem more bothered about what is the correct RAL code for the tank or are those bolts cycle thread because they should be you know and they are loaded from the wrong side Blah Blah Blah. To be honest I'm fed up of hearing the same old same old. If there are enough people out there who want this then get off your lycett sprung fat backsides and stop moaning and bloody well sort it out. I don't know of one CoC who would refuse your help laying out or one Trial Secretary who wouldn't want to see you sign on at their event.

Ask yourself how many events have you helped lay out? How many events have you officiated at? How many events do you ride in a year? How many different clubs are you a member of?

If you don't like the fact there are no mutually agreed P65 rules then damn well write some and lobby as many clubs as you can to adopt them. No point doing it on here get out there and do it canvas opinion on the ground on the day. The rest of us are too busy trying to run Trials Clubs, find and retain land, lay out courses, take entries on the day and of course publish results to people who think the bloody night fairies come out and do it not usually one bloke on his own in the p****** rain.

NOT directed at you Charlie as I know you have been there done it and probably made a loss like the rest of us doing so. Rant over

[laird387]

Hi,

OTF has well and truly 'hit the nail on the head' - the 'genuine pre-65 arguments' were fought - and severely lost by most clubs - many years ago.

Trials organisation has always been a true test of just how many real enthusiasts any club can muster to do the vast amount of time devouring work necessary to get to the point where the course is laid out and ready to go - and that always was, and likely always will be, the nub of the problem for any trial.

One fact remains abundantly clear to me - there are sufficient enthusiastic potential riders out there - just look at the recent Talmag entry - and what about those already busy making their plans for their ride in the Arbuthnot - but think of this, when Ian Rennie and I, with the help of the Salisbury club, recreated the Arbuthnot trial that had previously been lost to the calendar in 1929 we had to think twice before riding in the Talmag because we were already busy in January getting all round the Arbuthnot seventy miles, clearing blocked lanes, double-checking landowner consents and all the other details, weekend after weekend - and that would be the case for anybody contemplating introducing a 'genuine pre-65' event.

By way of lightening the topic, how about a look at an old trialler enjoying himself, Danny 'Pixie' Briggs with his resurrected girder forked 'AJS-mainly' model riding in one of the 2001 Mortimer events.

Enjoy.

[ttspud]

Hi Fanatic & Charlie & Laird,

Finally some progress. Some real insight being expressed. I am only sorry that it could not have been that way from the start.

Thanks Charlie, most appreciated. I do love your ideas, but I do see this as a class to include in existing trials as a first step.

I hear you all, running clubs is hard. Though you must enjoy it enough to go on with it or at least get something out of the experience even if it is just putting back in what you took out during riding years. As with riders, none of us mind losing money on things we enjoy or get something out of. I think expecting to make money from either riding in or running trials is probably hoping for the impossible or at very best, improbable.

What that has to do with ranting, with me or with this topic is not clear. I may well have helped run events and so on, and know exactly what you mean. But that is not at discussion here and those issues are neither my fault nor misunderstood by me. If you boys all have issues in that area, open up a topic to discuss it or find some other way to address it.

For absolute, final, certain, perfect clarity; inclusion of the new originals class will not require extra work setting the routes up, nor new events, nor new clubs. And as such, there are no good enough excuses for not including such a class at existing events.

The discussion here was closed because of the belief that a problem was not acknowledged nor contributors here seemingly willing to help with those rules. And closed for no other reason.

Now that it is acknowledged, by the comments above, both that there are riders expressing the same issue and that effectively there is a problem, that has changed to the extent that I will look at the rules myself and make them available when they are ready.

I am glad that there are many others, including other riders, with the same viewpoint as me, even if not commenting on this topic maybe, but they are there.

All you have to do is to include the new class at appropriate trials and the riders that want to ride it, if any. Any extra effort will be minimized. Modified riders will go on as before.

And it is fine that you do not want to either ride in such an originals class or help sort out the rules for such a class. I can and will do that.

Laird, yes, wonderful picture. Is he lining up to take on the 6 foot rock step or just spotted the wife?

damn well right some

Yes, I will. After that, there will be no excuses left not to include originals classes at pre-65 events.

As club owners, I understand that you will embrace the class with the same love you show for the sport as a whole.

Originals class rules to follow during the coming year.

Good riding & Good Luck,

TTSpud

Edited February 2, 2014 by ttspud

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Hi TT,

If you are going to put your self forward to write up "Rules" you need to do it now, not Waite a year.

Initially you could post them onto here,OK

Then take a set up to OTF and help him lay out a coarse on the wet Saturday before his next Trial.

In the mean time ,I would spend a few hours ringing around every one you know with a bike. And a grievance ,with the way things are, confirm they will all arrive on the day of OTF's ,trial, and you will need at least ,twenty ,with a few Observers as well to make it worth while.

If that happens you are onto a Winner,OK

Send me a copy of your Rules and I will place them onto my website too.

Regards Charlie "Proper bikes" care of www.bsaotter.com

[jon v8]

I cant be bothered to read through the whole thread as most,if not all of it has been done to death before.There are trials where you can ride a basic rigid,you just have to look around and find them.Close to me are Golden Valley and Somerton Classic,both run a gentlemans route where often its not much harder than a flat field.My club,Bath Classic are also introducing the same thing this year.Before trying to introduce new trials or extra classes maybe you need to concentrate on your riding ability and make sure your bike is nicely setup - so it will give its best.

The other suggestion is not to be too wrapped up in trying to win,why not do as many riders do and work out who has similar abilities/bikes to you and pitch yourself against them.You can do this privately or have a fun bet amongst the others to see who has to buy the tea and burgers etc... Friendly banter like this is commonplace in our trials,(Bath Classic don't have awards) and is a big part of the day for the vast majority of us.

- In other words,just shut up and ride ! Trials,esp pre65 is fun, I REALLY enjoy it,if you don't maybe its not your ideal pastime.

[ttspud]

Hi Jon,

Yes, I looked at the Bath Classic club, it looks like a fantastic club, well done. 8 events a year and 50/60 riders across a whole range of different bikes, ages and so on. Brilliant, if I were nearer, I would certainly enjoy riding there.

Your AJS looks amazing too, lots of mods and so on, great. I have no problem with others enjoying modified bikes at all. Gaining the advantage. Weedling out that inch of height or kilo in weight. It all helps to get you the winning edge.

wrapped up in trying to win

If the rest force me into it, I don't mind winning at all. Sometimes it is a bit embarrassing though. All those hot bikes and my old bone-breaker beats em all!!

My only considered offering to the the God 'Win At Any Cost' is a square inch of duck tape on the good ol' steel tank to stop the hole in my trousers getting too much bigger. And still that damn wide leather seat causes all sorts of havoc!! Oh for a slim seat, light bike, easy clutch, electronic ignition, small tank, plush suspension.. ah, that's why I have the Gasser!!! I have once considered letting a bit of air out of the tyres to really gain an edge; the problem is you have to pump them back up!!

No, if it is avid 'wrapped up in trying to win' that you have a problem with, you want to look at those modifying their bikes for your quarry. If no-one had begun the fanatical pursuit of that route, the sport would not need to consider originals designations in the first place. You only need to look at the bikes at the Scottish events to see what has happened. They are pre-65 bikes but only by name. You can call a train a van if you want, but it does not make it one. There are no bikes like mine there, there couldn't be, you'd bottom out on almost every rock on the course!! Not much fun to be had there. Already excluded the chance of competing on an equal footing at one event, before long it'll be all events and I am not going to let that happen.

Before trying to introduce new trials or extra classes maybe you need to concentrate on your riding ability

Yes, thank you, your concern is sweet!! Though, I have ridden for 30 years, if I can't do it now, I never will.

shut up and ride

Talking is not allowed? Blimey, sorry, I had no idea. I shall remember that and ride as silently as a gentle breeze. I can't speak for the bike though, it is a bit loud but to shut that up would really be a crime.

I REALLY enjoy it

Great! Of course, I ride in abject misery, a flaking wisp of a being, covered in pain, wracked with fear and wishing I was anywhere else!! In amongst that, I am able to enjoy it too, wonders will never cease. As your modified bike hops over logs, wheelies up the hills, endos around the corners, the odd splat at a step... I'll be raging up a hill, muscling through a gully and fighting my way through the mud, wonderful and as it has always been. Better though to compete fairly, and in enabling that, we will all enjoy it even more and we will protect the sport for those to come. And that is a good thing.

I don't know if you have enough riders riding pre-65 originals to worry about including originals, but you will likely be able to get to the originals rules from here anyway when they are available.

Thanks for your post though, good luck with the club, it looks brilliant.

Keep your feet up! as the trials guys say,

TTSpud

Edited February 2, 2014 by ttspud

[ttspud]

Hi Charlie,

Will do. Thanks for the support.

TTSpud

[jon v8]

Hi Jon,

Yes, I looked at the Bath Classic club, it looks like a fantastic club, well done. 8 events a year and 50/60 riders across a whole range of different bikes, ages and so on. Brilliant, if I were nearer, I would certainly enjoy riding there.

Your AJS looks amazing too, lots of mods and so on, great. I have no problem with others enjoying modified bikes at all. Gaining the advantage. Weedling out that inch of height or kilo in weight. It all helps to get you the winning edge.

If the rest force me into it, I don't mind winning at all. Sometimes it is a bit embarrassing though. All those hot bikes and my old bone-breaker beats em all!!

My only considered offering to the the God 'Win At Any Cost' is a square inch of duck tape on the good ol' steel tank to stop the hole in my trousers getting too much bigger. And still that damn wide leather seat causes all sorts of havoc!! Oh for a slim seat, light bike, easy clutch, electronic ignition, small tank, plush suspension.. ah, that's why I have the Gasser!!! I have once considered letting a bit of air out of the tyres to really gain an edge; the problem is you have to pump them back up!!

No, if it is avid 'wrapped up in trying to win' that you have a problem with, you want to look at those modifying their bikes for your quarry. If no-one had begun the fanatical pursuit of that route, the sport would not need to consider originals designations in the first place. You only need to look at the bikes at the Scottish events to see what has happened. They are pre-65 bikes but only by name. You can call a train a van if you want, but it does not make it one. There are no bikes like mine there, there couldn't be, you'd bottom out on almost every rock on the course!! Not much fun to be had there. Already excluded the chance of competing on an equal footing at one event, before long it'll be all events and I am not going to let that happen.

Yes, thank you, your concern is sweet!! Though, I have ridden for 30 years, if I can't do it now, I never will.

Talking is not allowed? Blimey, sorry, I had no idea. I shall remember that and ride as silently as a gentle breeze. I can't speak for the bike though, it is a bit loud but to shut that up would really be a crime.

Great! Of course, I ride in abject misery, a flaking wisp of a being, covered in pain, wracked with fear and wishing I was anywhere else!! In amongst that, I am able to enjoy it too, wonders will never cease. As your modified bike hops over logs, wheelies up the hills, endos around the corners, the odd splat at a step... I'll be raging up a hill, muscling through a gully and fighting my way through the mud, wonderful and as it has always been. Better though to compete fairly, and in enabling that, we will all enjoy it even more and we will protect the sport for those to come. And that is a good thing.

I don't know if you have enough riders riding pre-65 originals to worry about including originals, but you will likely be able to get to the originals rules from here anyway when they are available.

Thanks for your post though, good luck with the club, it looks brilliant.

Keep your feet up! as the trials guys say,

TTSpud

Don't take my post too seriously,it was typed with help from wine.... As this one is. My AJS is far from trick,it still has chrome Dunlop rims etc,and the frame mods look like someone rode it into a brick wall at speed,nothing too clever.

Can you explain what a "Gasser" is, maybe something for filling suspension unts on those modern bikes with springer rear ends ?

[ttspud]

Hi Jon,

No problem at all.

Wine can say the most senseless of things.

And the Gasser is a different bike altogether!

Good riding and Good Luck,

TTSpud

[trialsrfun]

Hi TTSpud, Are you including the many Pre 65 two-stroke bikes that were in use in that period in your class Greeves, DOT, Cotton, Sprite etc?

[ttspud]

Hi Trials,

Good Question.

I don't see why not at all, that is, at least almost certainly can be included in the rules.

I shall hold back on the details until I know for sure.

The events that I have ridden at are British, pre-unit, four-stroke, to my knowledge. But, the idea is really as appropriate to the bikes that you point out, it is just that they are not, again, to my knowledge, being ridden at the events that I have attended.

I have noted it down, and I will keep your point in mind as something to address.

Thanks,

TTSpud

Edited February 4, 2014 by ttspud

[suzuki250]

I think people get too hung up on “what’s correct & genuine”, it doesn’t matter how many rules there are people will always bend them. It’s a fact of life!

The vast majority of people who compete in pre65 enjoy it as it is

Also what is an original pre65, and could you actually prove it to component level on a cold sunday morning?

And who would scrutinise 40+ bikes before the trial

Would Spanish machines be allowed, as they are genuine pre65?

I think jonv8 is right, just ride the bikes you have

Edited February 5, 2014 by suzuki250

[old trials fanatic]

I think people get too hung up on “what’s correct & genuine”, it doesn’t matter how many rules there are people will always bend them. It’s a fact of life!

The vast majority of people who compete in pre65 enjoy it as it is

Also what is an original pre65, and could you actually prove it to component level on a cold sunday morning?

And who would scrutinise 40+ bikes before the trial

Would Spanish machines be allowed, as they are genuine pre65?

I think jonv8 is right, just ride the bikes you have

Exactly !

[ttspud]

Hi Suzuki & Fanatic,

Yes, as the 2-stroke question above, it is likely that the rules could be applied in the same way to other pre-65 bikes, as the Spanish machines you suggest, though neither would be eligible to ride at the events I have ridden at which were all British, 4-stroke & pre-unit anyway.

'What is an original pre-65'? Well, the rules will make that very clear and unambiguous.

'Who would scrutinize the 40+ bikes'? Firstly, of course it is only those entered as 'Original' that would need the extra attention for that, and it is likely that only events that did scrutinize before would want to include the distinction for originals anyway. And if 40+ bikes have entered as original, that would be amazing.

Thanks Guys,

TTSpud