Risk Assessment.

[arun1664]

The need to produce a risk assessment is without a doubt a consequence of the claim culture, but don't blame the ACU (I'm not even a member). All they are doing is protecting the organisation, how would it be if the ACU folded because some MX lunatic took a crowd out & consequent legal action brought it to its knees ? Its all about being seen to take "reasonable actions" to prevent/avoid incidents.

So far as a risk assessment is concerned, IMHO it should be no more than a documented record of what(I suspect) a Clerk of the Course/Section Designer does any how when he plans an event (parking, sections appropriate to skill levels, warnings & waivers etc).

The two things the ACU could/should do is provide a checklist of things to consider so the club has somewhere to start, along with a poster that can be put up at the signing on area with the list of does, dont's and you're on your owns.

A final thought, this probably has as much to do with keeping the public liability insurance fees down as anything else ...

[overthehill]

I dont want to get into this too deep but from a legal point of view the main concern is from civil claims. As these are covered by the event insurance i think that we have to do sufficient to satisfy the insurance companies. I am sure that the ACU have consulted with the insurers and any guidance given probably reflects this. However from what i have seen we could do with some more guidance.

Dont get tied up on 'risk assessments' - the important thing is to consider what control measures you need to put in place to minimise risk to a reasonable level. Having competent and experienced officials will go a long way to achieving this. - this is where my concerns with the current official licencing system comes in - i dont know what the ACU does, but the SACU gives out a Clerk of the Course licence to anyone who attends a seminar and passes a test which proves that they can read a handbook. I feel that competence and experience must also be shown for the important officials at national events - if you can demonstrate this, it is your main defence in any challenge to the running of the event.

[beaver]

I own a Health & Safety Management company and I think that what the ACU/SACU are trying to do is get the significant risks minimized - not all risk can be eliminated.

Most clubs now, certainly in Scotland, are Limited Companies. This alone requires an elevation in responsibility (legally). As for the paperwork I suggest that,like Scorpa3, some serious thought is put into this. Don't just put down one or two things that you think will satisfy the ACU as this "bit of paper" could well make the difference to a club surviving a claim (should the need arise). Insurances will be void if RA's are not carried out fully.

Another thing worth mentioning is that, when a club is paying an instructor the instructor then becomes a "a worker" and as such the responsibilty elevates yet again! So, if an incident occurs whilst the instructor is teaching, the Health and Safety Executive get involved and will instigate an investigation.

I know this is boring and most see it as an unnecessary waste of time but it is the Law and nothing changes that. Sorry guys it has to be done properly or risk the club!

HSE Managers/Consultants are very common now - find out if there is one in your club and ask for help. We're quite nice people really and don't mind doing them for you!

[atomant]

HSE Managers/Consultants are very common now - find out if there is one in your club and ask for help. We're quite nice people really and don't mind doing them for you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speak for yourself Dan, the thing is, I'm fortunate to have the knowledge to be able to do them for my own club Breidden Hills but there is no way I could do them for other clubs as well. I just dont have the time. This will leave them in a bad situation and one which I am very uncomfortable with )

What it needs is someone like your self with a H&S company to write some or at least advise the ACU on some generic RA's on things like :

Refuelling

Events which have two way traffic

Venues which have Footpaths/Walkway right of ways.

Spectators at sections

etc etc

Then have the club define localised RA's (as in my example earlier in this thread at one of our venues which has mineshafts).

Insurances will be void if RA's are not carried out fully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this statement direct from the ACU? if so, every club holding a trial this weekend and onwards are vunerable to a claim unless the necessary RA's have been done to an acceptable level.

[scorpa3]

I started this thread because I spoke to some ACU Trials & Enduro committee members recently following the inclusion of a RA form with every set of permits issued for an event.

They (the ACU) have put the system in place but their guidance is very, very limited but they HAVE done their bit.

It's now up to the Clerk of the Course at each event to do the rest.

That's where my main concern lies. My signature on a RA makes me reponsible despite having had no training. What happens then when things go wrong?

I am seriously concerned about all this.

[rabie]

for a start don't all go out and s*** yourselves over this

calm down and have a cuppa tea (or )

firstly many clubs/organisers have been doing this for some time - forestry and MOD land has needed a risk assessment for some time

as the many professionals in this field have already explained the whole idea of what "risks" are, is very much in the eye of the beholder.

i wouldn't necessarily say the CofC has to the the risk assessment themselves, the secretary of the meeting or someone else may be better placed to do it - but generally the CofC is "god" / buck stops here - so they will have to sign off on it.

honestly don't make too much of a fuss about as MOD and forestry events have been doing them for some time

as for the quote from dan

Insurances will be void if RA's are not carried out fully.

i would say this first - if the permitting issuing authority (rugby, your centre, SACU, etc) has given you the permit you permission to run the event. at the end of the day risk assessment will be "good practise" just like having a steward and a licenced clerk of the course

on the other hand we in mx and enduro haven't been "forced" (as far as i know) by Rugby/centre/and committee to produce one although i know the track racing committee has had a grass track risk assessment floating about for some years now

on a final point its very much down to your very specific local situation - i know some venues have to have one because of a zealous local authority regularly inspects them for HSE issues (eg Hawkstone park, and others) and as I've already mentioned if you hire forestry/MOD you do one anyway. we've even had to make one up for the police who visit our British championship round - they weren't concerned what was in it, just that you've done one.

again if anyone's got a problem/issue with this please contact someone up the chain of command (eg your centre, the T&E committee, the trials desk at Rugby, etc) don't go cancelling events in a blind panic

rabie

[beaver]

My last post wasn't intended to cause panic! Just to emphasise that RA's need to be thought about and done properly.

AtomAnt, I'm not suggesting that you do all your local clubs. I would have thought (maybe wrongly) that each club will have at least one person who has done RA's before.

What it needs is someone like your self with a H&S company to write some or at least advise the ACU on some generic RA's on things like :

Refuelling

Events which have two way traffic

Venues which have Footpaths/Walkway right of ways.

Spectators at sections

etc etc

I'm pretty sure that the ACU will have employed HSE advisors before asking for RA's to be done. My last post was a personal statement not a bulletin from the ACU.

As for the "Insurances will be void" statement maybe I should have worded it differently to read "Insurances may well be void.....".

I agree totally with rabie - don't panic - it's not rocket science just common sense (most of the time).

[scorpa3]

I have spoken to top man (and his no2) in the Trials & Enduro committee about this, in person.

They are trying to play this down but agree that it is inevitable that every event will at some point in the future, need a full risk assessment to be carried out and signed ny the Clerk of the Course, who then takes on the responsibility in law.

Yes they are taking advice but at the moment are not in a position to give us any, other than to say "anything is better than nothing."

It is also correct that "insurances may be void" if the paperwork has not been completed and acted upon correctly.

The Trials & Enduro committee also said that if anyone has a better form for risk assessments then they would be happy to consider using it.

It's no good thinking that this will go away if we ignore it.

[baldie]

Having attended a CoC seminar on sat the topic of RA's was covered & while i agree that the CoC has alot on his plate at trials there is at least something that is being done by the ACU to cover the CoC & other officials in case there is a claim against officals/clubs. Lets not forget that you enter an event at knowing that you putting yourself at risk to some degree anyway. All i can say is that you use your common sense & experience when setting out any event from club to national status.

[john collins]

Re - Risk Assesment.

This is a difficult and time consuming subject - but perhaps I can at least through a little light on a few of the comments so far.

First - and I am afraid there is no question about this - The Clerk of the Course is responsible for each and every aspect of every event - regardless of discipline. Trials is no different. The C/Course has a Duty of Care to everyone at the event - and any Public who may be involved.

Perhaps next time we all moan ( and I too have done it) about this or that at a Trial - or criticise the C/Course as being out of touch or an old fart etc we should all remember that this is the guy who is putting his ( or hers) name down as the person who will take responsibility for one hell of a lot - just so we can enjoy our sport.

From an ACU perspective - our main objective will always be to try to provide as best protection for this guy and the organisers as we can. This often makes the ACU ( and remember that is all of us - not some mythical body somewhere - for we are a Union of Clubs and its members) being accused of too much paperwork/rules/regulations - and there is some truth in this - but we try to err on the cautious perhaps?

This protection for the Clerk of Course - often tends us try to second guess potential problems - even before they occur and try to put measures into place.

I believe our insurance for Organisers is second to none - and certainly protects the Clerk of Course, and we spend a lot of time trying to work on this and provide good solid cover. This is really the reason we licence all our Clerks of Course while other organuisations do not - it is often seen as just more ACU beuracraucy - as is many of the other things we do - but all ACU Committees feel this is an obligation we must meet. Please also remeber that ACU Committee people are not by usually proffession lawers and are just riders or past riders such as those who read these posts. We can only take advice, pay for advice and listen to what others tell us.

Now back to RA. Every Clerk of Course has always done it ,eg- How often have we planned a route so as not to have had two way traffic - or if we have - we have put in control measures ( tape/fence.marshal/notice etc)

We have taken into account - not just the risk within a section - but what would happen if a rider went out of control ? so we tend to keep sections away from the edge of a serious drop etc. Over recent years we have paid more and more regard to where spectators/public ( remember anyone who is not a rider is public) can stand. We have put in controls to protect Observers etc.

All this we have always done - from attention to Car park, toilets, and so it goes on.

What we probably have not done - well I certainly have not - is to write any of this down- and therefore turn it into a formal risk assessment.

Now - the whole area of H & S and Risk assessment is heavily steeped in what happens in industry and the workplace and for numerous years we hoped and prayed that this is where it would stay. Unfortunately it looks as if this is not the case and the H & S executive will apply their standards to Sport.

We obviously have to take advice on these issues and this will be done.

Those Clubs who run in Forestry Commission land - especially Enduro's have for some time had to produce a Risk assessment - and all indications were that Trials - and all other events would have to follow suit.

As a Committee we had to try to strike a balance in not using another ACU sledgehammer to crack a nut - but also to try to assist our Organisers.

Some time ago we produced a fairly simple document which was a very basic form of Risk Assessment. It was really a sort of attempt at recording obvious things we already do - and listing controls/precautions etc. It was not too onerous and was probably a good starting point.

It was not really about identyfying hazards within sections - these will always be there - but more trying to identify and stipulate other things such as Car park, route, spectator access etc.

Those who are already dealing with RA as part of their jobs - very quickly would see this as a rather too simple solution to RA - as they are obviously more used to doing a more formal 5 step plan.

It was however a start - and we clearly indicated to potential Organisers that if they already had a format ( as many would have people in their clubs well used to doing RA) - they could certainly use their own and we were just trying to give them a starting point.

More recently - we have produced another RA form -more similar to Industrial type practice - but I personally feel it is rather more onerous ( although probably more correct)

I too have qualifiactions in RA - but I find that trying to calculate the Liklehood/Severity calculations for a motorcycle event is rather daunting and I still hope we can arrive at a more simple solution.

The present situation is that we send out the forms as an example - and hope they are a help - especially the simple one - for those Organisers who have been recording nothing.

There is still debate on what we should or should not be doing - and the ACU as a body are investigating and will be taking advice. It is not as simple as just asking H & S - as they are not inclined to give such advice - merely point out responsibilities.

The whole matter is under urgent review - and surely more will follow. I hope I have just brought you up to date.

John Collins

[scorpa3]

John, thank you for your honest reply. The points which you mention more or less sums up the thoughts and concerns of myself and many of the replies on this thread.

The Clerk of the Course is responsible for the risk assessments, even if he/she doesn't carry out the assessment in person.

I appreciate that the members of the Trials & Enduro committee are not professional risk assessors, and therefore do not have or can not give the full answer to the issues that have been raised.

However, I feel that licenced Clerks of the Course need to have more detailed information on the type of risks that we are being asked to assess and the method of assessing those risks correctly. Correctly being the important word.

As you have no doubt read in some of the well informed replies on this thread, many if not all of the risks which will need to be assessed are generic to all trials events.

I am sure and I suspect you agree, that full risk assessments (and the corresponding 'safe systems of work') will be with us fully at some point in the future, so to ensure that the assessments are done to the neccesary standard we have little choice but to look to yourselves for detailed guidance and training.

This is an issue that will not go away no matter how much we all wish it would, but unpaid volunteers can only be expected to do so much off their own back.

I for one trust that the ACU will give us the best help and advice possible, I just hope that help and advice comes soon.

[scorpa3]

Has anyone made any progress on Risk Assessments at trials? Or are we still mudeling on as best we can?