Usa As A Wr Contender

[ahamayfrank]

Hopefully the term

[mich lin]

Frank, your observations about US rider levels may be right on the money? That's the whole topic here, US riders as world round contenders!

Why is it we can win at MX, roadracing, speedway and just about any other type of motorcycle competition but not trials anymore? Is there a fundamental flaw to the US grooming of top riders? For sure that's the topic here.

Thanks for your imput!

[wayne thais]

Why is it we can win at MX, roadracing, speedway and just about any other type of motorcycle competition but not trials anymore? Is there a fundamental flaw to the US grooming of top riders? For sure that's the topic here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lane,

You are in California, ask some MX riders, expecially some younger ones.

However all you have to do is pick up a dirt bike magazine, for the most part it is cover to cover MX and off road racing, there will be a rare article about trials.

Cycle news is the best source for something about trials. I told one of the magazine editors a couple of years ago that they held our growth in their hands.

I think that you will also find that the governing body of all of these venues want them to grow. I have heard the same story as you related about how the leadership in the NATC at one time decided that they did not want trials to grow. Maybe this will change.

Another thing is that the factories are very directly involved in the other venues in the US. Over here the importers are doing everything they can to support the sport, I believe that they are all stretched as it is, I know RYP reorganized in order to stay in the black.

It is interesting to note what Sherco is doing in Europe, they hold regular Schools for the up and coming young riders. Several of our up and coming riders are on Sherco. I would hope that Will, Patrick and Andrew would avail themselves of these schools next year, I know that Will has gone in the past. If these kids were to decide that they wanted to attend maybe they should start a fund for this purpose. High school bands do all kinds of things to get money for their trips to bowl games etc.

Enough of my rambling,

Wayne

[neonsurge]

Why don't you simply call your national Trials series 'World Series Extreme Trials' then at the end of the year you've got yourselves a World Champ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm slightly ashamed to admit that I'd thought the same thing while reading this thread.

But thinking about it, if anyone is brave/stupid/cynical (delete as appropriate) enough to run a series with such a provocative name, it's just possible that there might be a knock-on effect: IF such a series (or even a one-off event) with the "World Extreme Trials" label happened, IF the top American riders plus a few Euros attended and IF there was some significant media coverage, it might start something that the factories would find difficult to ignore considering the potential size of the American market. So before long Dougie, Raga, Cabby and the boys are hopping on trans-Atlantic flights to not only compete in this new event but also (and more importantly from their respective factories' point of view), to get brand exposure and promote the sport. This would have to involve exhibitions, masterclasses etc, the cumulative effect of which would undeniably filter down to club level in terms of general awareness of the sport among Joe Public and increased membership.

Or maybe I need to stop drinking so much.

[mich lin]

Neo and Wayne, man you guys are right on the money!

One reason US trials was so big in the 70s was Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki were interested in trials growth. They put a lot of money into our sport, so did the Spanish big three. So the magazines really pushed trials giving us a lot of coverage because of the Japanese big 4.

Two factors stopped the Japanese interest.

ONE, the lack of professional organizers for trials like we have for MX and Enduros, which created overcrouding at the limited number of events available to ride in the USA. If a strong core of Pro organizers like Bill Markem had popped up accross the nation, perhaps this story would be differnt.

Instead of multiple events organized each week for trials like you would see in the UK each weekend, perhaps 30 or more in a nation the size of California. US event numbers stayed the same accross the nation, perhaps 10 nationwide each weekend. Yet the number of bikes and riders increased greatly.

With increased bike sales and promotion,the numbers of riders swelled, lines at the sections became longer and longer. It became more difficult to handle the bigger entries with so few events nationwide. Simply it was not much fun sitting in long lines breating 2 stroke smoke.

The NATC instead of taking an interest in trials growth,national, regional and local organization, they simply adopted a NO GROWTH policy. Which was a simple solution to the overcrouding problem the local events were having.

To be fair, these men were volenteers and to expect such broad reaching vision may have been expecting to much of them. We must realize that US trials also had a strong ANTI-PRO rider, organizer and AMA movement then. Many felt it was unsporting to make a buck off the sport. So this negative, also must be factored in!

If we would have had several individuals pop up in each area of the country who promoted trials for fun and profit, like we saw for enduros and moto-cross. The overcrouding problem would have been solved, we would have had more events like in the UK.

Then with help from the NATC of course with standard rules and classes nationwide. Then some kind of regional championships tossed in for good measure,along with the excellent NATC US championship PRO series we had.

TWO- The fatal mistake the Japanese Big 4 made was lagistics, that cost them dearly. I don't think they ever realized what they did to sink their trials ship! Japan made the decision to ship trials motorcycles motorcycles in a similar fasion to the USA that they shipped their small street bikes, two per crate.

It was impossible to buy just ONE, a dealer had to take a box with TWO bikes in it. A customer would come in and order a TY or TL and it would come with another in the box with it. The dealer had to take two!

This second bike would often just sit there on the floor, burning up flooring interest on his inventory loan for the dealer who had his inventory on consignment. When the bike did sell it was at a loss. It got to the point were dealers would not even order a trials bike when a customer wanted to buy one.

Sorry for the boring history lesson but history is supposed to be boring except to those who love it!

Neo, is right, that if in the 70s somebody organized a World Series of Trials in the USA, it would have attracted the best worldwide. Today, we simply don't have the industry and press support. What we do need is 50 Bill Markems accross the USA, people who organize trials for fun and a few dollars. More trials like the Wendsday night event Ishy talked about on this tred.

Then as today, we still don't have the choice of the large number of trials people enjoy in the UK each weekend. We have to drive hundreds of miles to ride events maybe once a month. Without events, nobody will come and ride, nobody will buy bikes and we will see importers like RYP, US Montesa, Scorpa, Beta and GASGAS running on Micro budgits. Not to mention, no interest from KTM, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki for trials.

[trialsurfer]

I don't usually add my comments to this site, but merely from my point of view from attending a few World Rounds that were held in the US in the past few years, I noticed that all of the top riders and teams had prior World Champions as their "Team Managers", responsible for training and overseeing all of their riders, from the current World Champion (Dougie Lampkin) on down to the up and coming rider (Adam Raga, at one of those times). I think this is one area where the US is lacking as none of our top riders have anybody of the World calibur to work with them, to push, encourage, or give them the incentive to excel beyond their wildest imaginations, or to even show them what they might be doing wrong, or could be doing better. It would have been nice if Tommi Ahvala could have taken on such a role and worked with all of our Pro riders, regardless of who sponsors them, while he was in the country, but this did not happen to my knowledge. The only suggestion I can think of that would not cost the sponsors or riders a bundle of money would be to have "training" days set aside in conjunction with the Nationals for all of our riders who ride the Pro Class, which would provide them with the opportunity to ride and train with each other, not just compete against one another. I am so proud of Chris, Geoff, Cody and Keith for bringing home the Gold in the International Class this year at the TDN, but if the US is going to have a chance of excelling next year in the World Class, I can't think of anything that would benefit them more than by being able to ride with each other and mentoring one another whenever possible, if we can't get a "Pro Team Manager" to help them. If that isn't feasible, then maybe we should think about setting up "training days" at TTC, or wherever, several times a year just for the Pros. Doing something would be better than doing nothing, and just continuing down the path we seem to be headed does not appear productive to me or our riders. Thanks for your time, Jean (not Barry)

[mich lin]

trialsurfer, your comments are well stated! If our best riders intend to excel at the TDN A class they certainly cannot continue to coast along as they have in the past. The first BIG mistake is creating a national scedule conflict for our riders to contest the US world round, which would be a good dress rehersal for the TDN A class debut this year.

There is no doubt that TEAM USA outclassed everyone last year in the B group by a mile. Our riders have what it takes in style, technique, organization, equipment and sponsorship to be TDN A group contenders, all they lack is CONFIDENCE and a game plan!

We did have two US world champs, Bernie and Debbie! Nobody bothered to draw from Debbie's knowledge of what it took to be the best when she was available! Why would we think that anyone would approach Bernie when he is even harder to find?

I tend to beleive that Team USA's secret plan is to lose big this year at the TDN, then drop back and be the big fish in the small pond again. I don't believe this generation of US riders really wants to ride with the world's best.

My plan for team USA would be pick off the "A group national teams one by one starting with the Cech Republic. Then year after year fight and train our way to the top or at least rise as high as we can get in the A group. In my view, the USA belongs in the big leagues of our sport, not the minor leages.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Mich Lin

[trialsurfer]

Lane - you really get my blood boiling at times. You are so off base about our TDN team and I want you to know that I totally disagree with your opinion about the US wanting to drop back to the B Class so they can be at the top of that class sometime in the future. That is just ridiculous!!!

I also want you and everyone else to know that Chris went to the NATC meeting this year and, after much discussion, hopefully he managed to convince this year's hosting clubs that it is in the best interest of the Pros to be challenged with tougher sections at "all" of the National competitions. When he finished an entire National with 1 measley point for the entire day, how does that challenge our riders and make them better riders??? And just to add my opinion, I feel that at this level of competition, it should be based on skill (and maybe some luck), not silly mind games.

Chris had also thought he had convinced NATC that it would be in the best interest of the Pros to ride the World Class level at TTC during the World Round, but somehow that decision has now been reversed since the adjournment of the meeting. Who made that decision after it was agreed by the NATC Council that they would be riding at the World level? Chris Florin is the only American who has received any world points in many, many years. His hearts desire was to go for World points at TTC but at the same time he can't afford to toss away any of his National points, so he is stuck between a rock and a hard place since the reversal of this decision and its caused him a lot of frustration. Chris is the only "American" who rode the last World Round in Duluth at the world level, and thankfully Cody and Steve rode at the Jr. level. Does that not prove to the trials community that we have riders who are willing to make the sacrifice to improve, but somehow that choice keeps being taken away from them. Has anyone even asked our Pro riders and taken a vote amongst them to see who wants to ride what line during the World Round at TTC? I believe it should be the majority rules in this case, and if the majority votes the lower class, then so be it, but leave the decision up to the riders. Personally, I think it was poor planning to combine a National competition with a World competition and maybe some valuable lessons will be learned from this when it is all over.

On a note to help the younger generation, has any thought been given about simply asking NATC to add another class for the "Jr. Pros" so they could compete on their 125s and still maintain their competitiveness in the Jr. World Rounds? If not, maybe this should be a topic of discussion for the next NATC meeting; and if that means changing some rules to accommodate them, then so be it! Isn't that what a Council does? There may be some logistics to overcome, but wouldn't it be worth it to our younger generation who have hopes of aspiring to this level, as well as our older generation who are still hoping for another USA World Champion?

Jean

[outlaw dave]

Hey lane - Interesting to read your comments on why the Japanese invasion of the USA Trials Market didn't work - In actual fact, it was the wrong information and market projections given by the USA Distributors, that caused the Japanese to re-think strategy - Yamaha USA had thousands of TY 250's left at the end of 1974, so did not want to order any units for 1975 - It had little to do with two bikes per crate. - As any Motorcycle retailer will tell you one bike sitting by itself will not sell -put three or four in a row and the model gets sales action. However the crunch with the big corporations getting involved in the 70's was they pushed Trials bikes on dealers that knew bugger all about them - In Canada we had a selective market and realistic numbers so that at the end of the year the inventary was clean - And guess where most of those old 74 TY 250's ended up ? - In Canada.

[mich lin]

trialsurfer, boiling blood is good!

I'm really glad that Chris scored last year, he's the first male US rider to score FIM championship points since Ryan Young in the middle 1980s. I find that a really amazing dry spell for USA male riders.

I think we agree more than we disagree if we sat down nose to nose! I figured that Chris would again want to ride the world round in 06, that's what I would want to do in his position. The question simply remains, who else is willing?

Since the NATC has decided that our riders are not up to the grade to compete with Raga, Dougie and Fugi on the world championship course. We simply now wait and see where in the USA top ten Sanz can finsih on the Jr World championship/US national course? she is riding the same course as the US Pros, this will be interesting!

Remember, I want to see Chris and the top US pros in with Raga, Dougie and Fugi also, just like you. Now the NATC has put Geoff, Chris, Webb and the others in the position of trying to not be beat by the ladies world champ. If they are, it's a blow they may never recover from.

[mich lin]

OutlawDave, sure their market projections were wrong, That's obvious! Remember Bultaco USA was selling 2500 Sherpa T's per year at that time in the USA. The Japanese didn't think that Bultaco could outsell them like they did. The Japanese have made a few mistakes over the years, they simply have the volume to overcome them!

Now if Bultaco had required each dealer to buy 2 Sherpas when they only had sold one by shipping them two per crate. I doubt that Bultaco would have moved nearly as many bikes either.

The other point I made was simply, the US importers wanted trials to grow! The NATC didn't want trials to grow! Without improved organization, increased numbers of riders cannot be obsorbed into the sport.

US trials simply was not willing to or in a position to up their national, regional and local organization. The reason for that failure to take the sport to the next level can be debated over and over again. 20/20 hindsight is always perfect.

Now do we still want the sport in the USA and Canada to stay as is? Or do we want it to be more on the level of what trials is doing in Great Britan? What's your answer to my question Outlawdave?

[ringo]

Nicely put Jean!!!!

Somebody please tell educate me on how one earns world round points.

I have some incredible video footage of Geoff Aaron, Chris Florin, Andy Johnson and Ray Peters at the first Duluth World Round [you know, the one I wasn't kicked out for getting KILLER video footage or our AMERICAN riders] Did they not score WR points?

At the next WR in Duluth, I witnessed Cody Webb attack the WR sections like no other and continue on after drowing his bike and almost killing himself in a section.

There is no doubt in my mind, after witnessing Cody and Chris, that they have what it takes to enter and compete in a world round. Furthermore, they are not scared, nor do they lack the desire.

Geoff, on the other hand, is a business man and has chosen to ride trials for a living, is successful and is very smart about how he conducts his business, therefore his

[ringo]

Jean,

If you don't mind, would you explain to me why Chris can't ride whatever level he chooses at the World Round? I honestly haven't followed this to much but I find it difficult to believe that anyone out there has the right to tell him what he can and can't do. Again, I'm not up to date so I do not know the story.

I was under the assumption that we could ride both the National and the World Round.

Thanks

Johnny

[dbrown]

Has anyone even asked our Pro riders and taken a vote amongst them to see who wants to ride what line during the World Round at TTC?  I believe it should be the majority rules in this case, and if the majority votes the lower class, then so be it, but leave the decision up to the riders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jean,

the answer to the above question is yes, and that's why the Pros are riding a National on a different line than the WTC. Ultimately, I made the decision on how to set these lines, so if you want to fuss you can direct it at me rather than anyone else at NATC. But the response of the majority of the Pros was a major factor in the decision.

I think Chris and all of our National riders will have a chance to demonstrate their considerable skills in front of a large and enthusiastic crowd, and I'm hopeful that we will secure good TV coverage of both the WTC and National Championship competitions.

Trust me on this one that it will work out for the best, and if it doesn't then we'll do something different in the future!

regards,

Dan

[mich lin]

Ringo, I totally understand your positon on Geoff and his business interests. He simply has NO interest in doing world rounds! He only cares about the US championship and his shows.

The situation that riders like Chris and other Americans who want to ride the world round find themself in is this. They must choose between either riding the Jr. World Round/ US Championship line or the World Round line. They simply cannot ride both the national and the world round at the same time. I call this Catch 22!

As dbrown has pointed out, it was by the choice of some of the US Pro riders with no world round interests and Dan himself. I was very aware of this vote, because Dan had mentioned it in a post here before.

What this vote does is undermine the US TDN team's chances this year of a good dress rehersal with the world's best. The US world round would be great experence for our American Pro class riders. I can understand the frustration that the riders who want to ride with the world's best have with those who don't.