wayne thais Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Some more info on how US bicycle racing was conducted when I was racing a few years ago. AMATEUR classes. Classes: CAT V, CAT IV, CAT III, CAT II and CAT I. They also had classes for senior riders, typically 35+, 45+ 55+, in these classes everyone was lumped together, a new 45 year old rider would be riding with someone who could have been a CAT I or CAT II in years past. The 45+ beginning rider could also ride with the CAT V's. You were allowed to race up a class but you could not race down a class. The USCF rep was responsible for upgrading riders. I forget how you were awarded points but if you won or placed well in several races you would be moved up a class. If you dropped out of the sport and made a comeback you could appeal to the USCF and get bumped back a class. Anyone who rode had to have a "License" issued by the USCF, your racing age and class were spelled out on the license. Races: When we promoted a race our job was to do just that promote the race and set up the course. We also were responsible for registration. On the day of the race a team of USCF officials would arrive and run the race, they would make sure the course was safe and then do all of the race day chores. Start, finish etc. We were reponsible for paying them and providing their meals, we also paid them mileage. We obtained the purse from the local business owners, some provided money and some provided merchandise. The purse would be distributed to all of the classes, we gave the largest amount to the higher classed riders but the lower classes were not left out. We would typically draw riders from 3 or 4 states. Would a purse be applicable in trials? That is up to the promoter, I found myself looking at the purse when deciding which events to race. Now could any of this be applied to US trials? I think that some of it could if the riders thought that it was a step in the right direction. I see the current situation in the US as somewhat splintered and would hope that the majority of the riders/clubs would like to see it united. It would be nice to be able to compete all across the country and have the same classes, same rules and the have the event controlled by the same governing body. I also think that there is a certain amount of what I would call "Old Foggeism" (probably spelled wrong)in the sport and it would be refreshing to see it changed. OK, I just put on my Nomex underwear. Let it rip! I am a senior citizen and can take the heat! Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinner Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Great thread by a bunch of first class people. For all the things we need to fix or change the one thing that we Do Not what to change are the people. In the 20 years I have made some fantastic friends from all over the country. {Wayne thanks again for all the help you gave Jake and I at TTC youth nationals in 04} Trials people are the most friendly and helpful people in all of motorsports period!!!! :santawink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne thais Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Spinner, you are welcome, it was my pleasure. You are absolutely correct, the people are great. I am amazed at how riders in the same class will help each other pick lines and encourage each other. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 (edited) This is the topic starter by ringo, followed by r2's reply Over the years I've seen all of you debate over how to get an American rider to be competative at a world round. What I haven't seen are suggestions with regards to sponsorship. The reason the other countries are so competative is that the sport of trials pays money over there and is considered a professional sport. Here in America, trials is an amatuer sport. Our professional sports here pays nice little chunks of money like 25 million dollar contracts therefore our kids are motivated and their parents are turned into "soccer parents" doing all the things that create professional sports players out of them. Take motocross for example. Notice all the adds on tv where the whole family rides and the kid turns into an RC. Notice the tv shows that show how big the estates are of professional sports heros today. For discussion of a realistic solution, why not bring back the attempts at a professional trial wherein there is prize money. Nothing motivates more than money. Ricky Carmichael didn't have to go to another country to be #1 Tiger Woods didn't. Shaquile O'neil Babe Ruth, etc, etc, etc. -------------------- Everyone is entitled to my opinion r2wtrials Dec 7 2005, 04:41 PM Post #2 Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 1865 Joined: 14-November 04 From: wick st-Lawrence, north somerset. uk Member No.: 48 I would like to point out that here in the UK only the top 2 or 3 riders have any sort of income from the sport. Obviously Dougie has done well after being world Champ but i don't think you will find that he was on a good earner before his first world championship... When they had their "strike" in the Spanish championship a couple of years ago it was mainly to do with the loss of income for the local riders when the top foreign guys came over and pushed them down the finishing list. They got paid by position as well as sponsorship money. Doubt if you will find much money changing hands in the British Championship. As far as i am aware there is no one here who rides for the money... as there really isn't any.!! This post has been edited by r2wtrials: Dec 7 2005, 04:42 PM Keep in mind, as r2 points out, there is a miss conception that the lads in Europe make money, when some would jump at the chance of the support riders of lesser caliber get in the USA. Edited December 14, 2005 by ishy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Alan, If the NATC had not banned me from competing I would have beaten every rider in the USA but six. What was your highest national number ever in the US Pro class? In fact I'd ask that of just about everyone who decided to not let me ride this year. Did they ever do that well? Winning National number seven at 55 years old would have been something I would have been as proud of as winning the 4 national titles and then giving one of them away. Setting personal goals is important! Without them you cannot have enough enthusiasm to do a championship. My goals were to study and learn about todays national championship. Watch our best riders and study their styles, have fun and score national championship points. Then next year come back and do my age group championship! After that I was going to sponsor a team of young riders for the nationals and world championship. Ringo riding the Endurocross is another example of someone reaching for a personal goal. A lot of people may have thought he was crazy but he reached for something most people would not have dreamed of. I respect that! For me the goal of being national number 7 Pro seemed like a worthwhile personal goal to work hard toward. It motivated me enough to train in the gym everyday and practice on the bike everyday as well. I knew that the sections were over my head and that I'd have to really improve to manage to ride some of them. I was hurting nobody and improving myself a lot which is what personal goals are all about. Dispite what anybody else thinks! I had submitted my entries, which were accepted. Arrainged a machine from the importer for the eastern events. Had purchased my airfare, Rented a car and planned to travel with Bill Markem. Everything was in place and ready for my first eastern nationals in 25 years. I didn't cut and run Alan, I'd never do that, the NATC pulled the rug out from under me! They accepted my entries then at the last minute took my entries away. I'm still out my airfare of $350 because it was not refundable. What a waist of money because of their give an entry then take it away policies! I wish I had the $350 now for Christmas presents. In retrospect the NATC didn't and still don't have much vision or understanding of what motivates people to spend the time, effort and money to compete at a national or world championship at the top levels. Perhaps that's why it took my organizational vision for an American rider to score world championship points for the first time since the middle 1980s, that was Spain in 2000. That's another example of setting personal goals and making the effort, no matter what anybody else thinks. Goals, goals, goals! Worthwhile personal goals Alan. Lead by example! Just do it! Aim High! Go for the Gold! Step into the arena, win lose or draw. It's better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all. At least I tried, I won some championships! Scored some World championship points. That's better than not trying at all, Not entering, being a spectator all the time in life. Heck I'd ride the world round this year if they would let me! Who knows, maybe only 14 European riders might show up and I could score a world championship point. None of the other Americans are in a position to do so. I would be if they would let me. If I'm differnt than most people fine, at least I'm being true to myself. Sorry if this offends anybody! It's meant to be an inspiration for somebody to get out and simply participate in life insted of being only a spectator. Remember there are two types of people in the stadium, those watching the game and those playing on the field. Which will you be? I prefer being on the field insted of in the stands. If I can't be in the game as a coach or player, I'll find a sport where I can participate. Not just be a spectator. Ishy brought up the point of sponsorships and money in sports. Sports is a business and the sponsor always must get something for their investment. I feel that Trials does not give back to its sponsors! Ishy sponsored youth trials in his area, yet did he get back his money's worth? We sponsored the Trial De State, did we get our money's worth? To ride the nationals, to sponsor riders, people have to get their money's worth. I feel that the NATC ripped me off for my national efforts! I'm $350 bucks in the hole with my lost airfare and I'm reluctant to invest more, either as a rider or a sponsor. If I feel this way, other potentual sponsors might feel the same. Just some personal observations! Until this atmosphere changes, nobody will bring any money into this sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onestophop Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Mich Lin, I was curious on what your current riding ability is. I know you are a past champion, but what class would you currently put yourself in to be competitive? I know if the NATC wouldn't of banned you from riding you would of finished 7th in the PRO Class, but would you have been competitive? If a rider isn't competitive in his/her class do you believe it is in his/her best interest to move up to the next riding level or possibly even leap two classes? Do you think the NATC doesn't want you riding the PRO Class because you don't have the ability to ride the difficult sections and it wouldn't be safe for you or someone who had to catch you? Or do you think the NATC is trying to prove a point by excluding you because you don't want to go along with the NATC's program. Terry Bullard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringo Posted December 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Onestop, As this topic seems to be going along well with ideas, suggestions and simply pleasant discussion may I suggest that we move that question to another post? I was the one who called the Beave on that, it was hashed over for an extended period of time and, as much as I love to Bash the Beave, I think it should be laid to rest, at least from this thread. Only a suggestion. Ishy, once again you are 100% correct in that we need more volunteers in this sport. Of course guys like you and I know that because we are the 10% of the people who put on the local events, national events, and in your case World Rounds. Once again this leads back to grass roots. Baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. have moms and dads who will sign up to coach, assistant coach, etc. because they want to see their kids "get a scholarship" to go to college. Here's a thought. Let's get someone to put up a college scholarship for trials riding. Maybe it's $500 or maybe a bunch of clubs get together to offer more. In order to earn the scholarship the rider must maintain a certain gpa and must compete the entire local trials circuit. Now that might get some parental support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Mich Lin, I was curious on what your current riding ability is. I know you are a past champion, but what class would you currently put yourself in to be competitive? I know if the NATC wouldn't of banned you from riding you would of finished 7th in the PRO Class, but would you have been competitive? If a rider isn't competitive in his/her class do you believe it is in his/her best interest to move up to the next riding level or possibly even leap two classes? Do you think the NATC doesn't want you riding the PRO Class because you don't have the ability to ride the difficult sections and it wouldn't be safe for you or someone who had to catch you? Or do you think the NATC is trying to prove a point by excluding you because you don't want to go along with the NATC's program. Terry Bullard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does it really matter if someone wants/has to catch Lane? If he enters he's responsible to ONLY abide by the rules set forth. Along that same argument is, since we're (USA as a nation) not competitive in World Rounds, we shouldn't ever send anyone to even compete? How would we ever know? Anyway, this whole "Pro vs Amature, change the natc & all that" argument is getting off track, there are good ideas on both sides, most of them don't deal with the issue that is totally facing trials in the USA. That being, !!!IT IS DYING!!! There are 2 camps with vague (non the less determined) ideas on how to get it at least off deathbed, one of them thinks "pro" riders are the answer. But sorry Lane, to me that is what the healthy patient naturally will do, but this patient is sick, dead sick. Right now you also think we need corrective surgery on the national levels, I think maybe... But you aren't going to get to do surgery until patient gets at least a little better. ----- So this is the problem--- needs to be fixed before surgery---- We do NOT see support for the trials "the sport" in general like we started to see, in the 70's. But I think that could and will change before long. Problem is that the BIG 4 don't see it yet, and in this country the big 4 seem to rule. But, I find it beyond stoopid, that Honda-Kaw-Yam-KTM? spends thousands of thousands to promote the sport of off-road & Motocross, when in some states you cannot legally ride off road anymore (even private land is subject to being involved in a lawsuit & closure)? :madsanta: PLUS!!! at this very same time they do NOT *seem* to help or care when the few tracks and general riding area's are being closed. and I'm talking about the big pocket guys, not the local shops, as they know that no riding area means it gets damn hard to sell bikes. We all know the benefits of our sport, but word of mouth is all that has kept trials in the states, alive even this long (since everyone gave up in the 70's). Much like the old guys walking the malls with Oxygen carts, trials is in bad shape over here. Hell we all know & promote it to friends as, we can practice in Urban areas in our driveways, and enjoy the hell out of it without hardly disturbing anyone... That has been the oxygen bottle, word of mouth. But nothing we do does what it did when all 3 big toy makers had one on the showroom floors... We need dealers! We need presence. How come Honda (biggest dang corp) doesn't come out with models on showrooms, and then regional promotion and especially the upper level marketing types, to get involved, to do this... to help sell their damn merchandise? Why can they not see it. Racing was co opted & cultivated & developed to sell merchandise... But motocross and Quads are in serious danger... It is chicken or egg time. Trials can be developed to sell Merchandise. An optimistic look, for just one second... in general bike sales, Do you also feel or agree that maybe we're about where things were in the 60's? When japan invaded the bike market, everyone buying a bike, trying it, then finding their niche? Trials is a niche that seems to be hidden from anyone's view. Plus we're facing "where you gonna ride that damn thing" syndrome in the USA. Or to maybe go outside the paradigm? Maybe it will be Chinese bikes, cheap and cleverly marketed to be self sustaining, ECO friendly sports, resembling trials? 1 as our sport is really close to ZERO impact on the environment, no more impact than extreme downhill bicyclists, and other hiking and stuff. 2 You wont p*** off the adjacent landowners, because trials is not ridden in open areas with the bikes producing 98+ decibel sounds at 98% of the active time. Our total problem has NOT changed in just under 30 years, the sport has been an ignored item, and until the same political ritual that made "soccer" a vibrant sport in America, trials will continue to be as popular as horse shoe throwing... Lastly, another tactic could be this... I say we vote Mich lin into public office, Then we find the same lobbyists that proclaimed how "safe" soccer was compared the the nearly "deadly" sport of American style football, and get them working on our case. (by the way soccer and it's safety & Injury likely hood, is a lie, GOOGLE can help you come to terms with that, but IMHO a true and honest case on at least 2 fronts can be made for trials). Rant off. Hope you see my point. Sting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Good stuff guys! The topic was the USA as a world round contender. So attempting a championship is VERY much "on topic." My point on that subject is from a very credable position. Having scored more world round points than the whole current USA Pro class combined. Also remember I had to compete agaisnt the Adam Raga of my day, Bernie, not just float along like our current Pro class can without having to ride at a world class level. My point is simply that attitude and your mindset is what makes you a contender. As long as you believe you can be a contender you will be one. When that mindset is broken and you can no longer see yourself being world or national champion you will not be the champion. Look at Ryan Bell, He was a great rider, he came so close but gave up! Why? He lost his faith and vision! He could no longer see himself ever beating Geoff, so he lost his enthusiasm for the fight. Then simply gave up! Attitude is everything, my point about attitude on this subject is this. Are you going to look to people who have never even placed in the top ten at the US championship and never scored any world championship points to lead the way toward more Americans getting into the world championship points again. Or are you going to lisen to someone who has fought the fight, taken their hits and won a few and lost a few? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Terry, I ride like cr@p! Remember when I rode for a living, it was on the bike everyday and in the gym 3 times a week. Today I've not been on a bike in several months. I've got a business and family to run. Plus I'm 55 years old. If I trained like I did back then I really don't know how well I would do. To figure out what class I would ride in your area is simply impossible, how can I compare myself to anybody? Simply because we don't have standardized classes in the United States so naming a class has no point of referance. All I know is that when I entered the top US Pro class there was only six riders who would have beaten me. So that's all I have to compare to. There are 3 rules to championship trials, Score points, have fun or be paid a lot of money and learn something every event. I succeeded in achiving these 3 vital goals to maintaining championship success. So for me my goals of riding the US pro class championship was a achieved. No matter what anybody else thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Good post Sting, your comment about the big four, when they were involved the numbers riding were better than now, but I still don't think it was enough for them to stay involved. Having standard class levels. At this time a rider can choose what they ride age, agenda, what they feel like without moving up or down in class, their comfort zone, until classes are set by ability not gender will you get any standardization. The big question is! will the few that do ride trials accept being told what to ride, over having the choice ? When the national championship had only two classes, champ and support many more could attempt the champ lines so you had two large classes, now three are four riders in national and world championships are so far in front the most even bother trying to keep up. It's hard as a trials enthusiast saying trials is boring to watch, but in reality it is boring to watch, great to participate in though, I think working on the participating side will get better results, others think working on the publicity aspect will produce better results, both are just trying to improve the sport. I can only go with my mixture of old and new and do what I think is best for trials in this area, the same goes for the other posters, hopefully one of us can come up with something that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Flipping around the discussion a bit. Why is baseball so popular in the little leauges? I do not know the numbers, but in our town there are several leauges, numerous fields and all sorts of levels. ON the one hand the "Pro rider" group would have you believe that the kids are all out there playing to make it to the top high paid level. I think that is bull. I will ask my boss, but my kid wants to play baseball because little mike across the street is playing, he could not tell you national champion about nothing. I think kids (and for that matter adults) want to do what the folks around them are doing and having a good time doing. Very few of them do it with that "end goal" of being pro in mind. (I am certain there are exceptions, but in the big number scheme of things I bet it is minute) I think if somehow we can turn it around to FUN, and get others out there seeing it is FUN, then more will follow along. If an outsider see's it as Work, and a bunch of complicated rules, and no consistency between locations, and few and far between riding opportunities for this X thousand dollar special bike,,, man, that is a hard sell. As a side note, that is one of the reasons I like Hare Scrambles better than Enduro's, I get to the start time at the right time and place, then I go as fast as I can until they tell me too stop. I am sure there were other rules, but that pretty much sums up what I needed to know to run a Hare Scrambles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Sting Your observations about trials being on life support is right on and very perceptive. I agree with a lot of your points but not that my solution to the sick sport is Pro riders only. The solution is the sport having something for everyone like Soccer, football, golf or any other sport you might want to pick that is popular. Remember my claim that the NATC by design wanted a sport to be for old guys on Oxygen! Sorry I couldn't resist your visual picture. Take away the senior age groups and you might not even have a US national championship today. It was not always like that if you look at the Wagner report on the NATC webpage. In the past the Pro class was the backbone of the NATC championship. Their goals was to have a sport that they didn't have to deal with local club politics, have sportsmen age group champions at well organized events that they could enjoy. Then not have to deal with the Professional teams that made the nationals no fun because of the intense struggle between them for the top spots. The leadership of the organization laid out their plan for me at my last NATC meetng. It included a no growth policy, not having to deal with the local clubs, a secret sport that they could win their age championships and enjoy without the Pro riders and teams always creating a stir in their fight for the top. Their plans succeeded amazingly well, they now have the secret sport for senior class riders they planned for. Today, none of these people ride anymore. Now those of us left here have to decide if we continue in their senior program or do we go a differnt direction and design a sport that includes all types of people. One that has a grass roots, a semi pro regional level and also a Pro level with people living the dream like Tiger Woods or McGrath? I'm simply pointing out the fact that by NATC design, we now have what we have in this sport. Simply do we change the direction and try to include a wider interest for trials or do we leave it like it is? It took years of work by the NATC leadership to create todays trials. Do we upset their plans or do we keep US trials a secret sport geared for senior sportsmen riders who can afford to or have an interest to drive and ride all over the country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Terry, I ride like cr@p! . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You old dog, I saw you ride the old Bult at Donner last year, you pulled a floater round a tight exit corner ona thrity year old anchor clean that the rest couldn't do on the megga light pogo stick. Given the right sections like the ssdt you would still claim a first class award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 StingThe leadership of the organization laid out their plan for me at my last NATC meetng. It included a no growth policy, not having to deal with the local clubs, a secret sport that they could win their age championships and enjoy without the Pro riders and teams always creating a stir in their fight for the top. Their plans succeeded amazingly well, they now have the secret sport for senior class riders they planned for. Today, none of these people ride anymore. Now those of us left here have to decide if we continue in their senior program or do we go a differnt direction and design a sport that includes all types of people. One that has a grass roots, a semi pro regional level and also a Pro level with people living the dream like Tiger Woods or McGrath? I'm simply pointing out the fact that by NATC design, we now have what we have in this sport. Simply do we change the direction and try to include a wider interest for trials or do we leave it like it is? It took years of work by the NATC leadership to create todays trials. Do we upset their plans or do we keep US trials a secret sport geared for senior sportsmen riders who can afford to or have an interest to drive and ride all over the country? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK Lane, call a name that someone can ask if their version of events jibes out with the Laneism that you are putting forth here. Who exactly is they, These, Their,,,, I think Jim Watson was with NATC at that time, I will ask him to start. Call a name as to who said this "Fact" as I somehow doubt they will agree with you and I also doubt they read, nor care much about what is wrote, on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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