mich lin Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 On the topic of kids riding, the two riders that I think have what it takes to get to the next level are Patrik Smage and then behind him is Andrew Oldar. These two are our best prospects for the moment, both have talent, drive and good support from their parents. What these young men need is a bunch of good young riders around them to push them and beat the tar out of them if they don't concentrate and focus every moment. I think it's to early to think any one of the other young riders has the drive and determination to score world points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 If Patrick is serious about doing something at World level he needs to pick up the phone Monday morning and tell Ryan Young to get the 290 swapped for a 125. Untill he is 18 he can't ride anything else at WTC plus it will make him learn the skills he needs, rather than be flattered by a bike which is probably twice as powerful as Oliveras won the WTC youth Championship on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Nigel, I agree with your view that Patrick should be on a 125 and training for the 125cc world championship. Not on a 290, where he might destroy his timing for the 125cc world title rounds he's almost of age for. Here's the rub, to remain sponsored in the USA, youngsters must move into the pro class where a 125 would be a BIG disadvantage agaisnt the 290s of the older established riders. If his results are very poor because of the 125cc bike he will not recieve the support he needs to get around to the US nationals! The just proposed but rejected 125cc national championship would have addressed this problem to a certain extent. Someone like Patrick or Andrew would have had a reason to stay on a 125cc bike and train for the 125cc world title. Which is the first step today toward a World Championship against Fugi, Dougie and Raga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Kinel, I apologize for my poor writing skills! What I was trying to point out, is that top riders of the past mixed more than today with other good riders. Now Dougie, Fugi or Raga are not available as much for the best local experts or the up and coming riders to train and ride with. This is good for Dougie, Fugi, Raga or even our national champion because it isolates them from the pack and makes them tougher to beat. It's not good for the up and coming riders for figuring out the techniques they lack. The principle is simple, if you hang out with good people their good habits rub off on you. If you hang with people with bad habits, they rub off also. Simply it's harder to beat the best when you can't ride with them often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
city trials Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 (edited) If Patrick is serious about doing something at World level he needs to pick up the phone Monday morning and tell Ryan Young to get the 290 swapped for a 125. Right you are Nigel!! But... Here's the rub, to remain sponsored in the USA, youngsters must move into the pro class where a 125 would be a BIG disadvantage agaisnt the 290s of the older established riders. If his results are very poor because of the 125cc bike he will not recieve the support he needs to get around to the US nationals! It would be like taking a butter knife to a machine gun fight. Edited December 18, 2005 by City Trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Why don't you simply call your national Trials series 'World Series Extreme Trials' then at the end of the year you've got yourselves a World Champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no jive Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 I have to agree with Wayne With a fund for our kids to go to Europe. I have brought this up before on Trials Comp. But I do think the kid going should start the fund. I think if a US rider is going to go to Europe even if he / she is over 18 could start a forum and ask for donations. I would definatly send some money. They could post how they are going to plan the trip. How much they think it will cost. When someone donates they could simply post the name of the person(s) who donated. Keep everyone in the loop of how much they have recieved and how much more they need. They could also send a mailer to clubs or club members asking for a donation. I also like Outlaw Daves post. Do any of our youth riders agree with us on any of these subjects. Other ways to make money could be Trials school at an event. Or put on an event. Just look at Geoff he has found ways very creative to make a living at what he does. To me the ways to easily send a rider to Europe are endless. I think most people would send money and feel proud they helped send a rider to Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
city trials Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 (edited) Just look at Geoff he has found ways very creative to make a living at what he does. No doubt No jive, Like having his girlfriend sell his industry credentials in the parking lot for extra cash at the Endurocross race in Las Vegas. Very creative. Edited December 19, 2005 by City Trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 StingYour observations about trials being on life support is right on and very perceptive. I agree with a lot of your points but not that my solution to the sick sport is Pro riders only. The solution is the sport having something for everyone like Soccer, football, golf or any other sport you might want to pick that is popular. Remember my claim that the NATC by design wanted a sport to be for old guys on Oxygen! <<<Posted 12-18-05, 08:08 AM Here's the rub, to remain sponsored in the USA, youngsters must move into the pro class where a 125 would be a BIG disadvantage agaisnt the 290s of the older established riders. If his results are very poor because of the 125cc bike he will not recieve the support he needs to get around to the US nationals!>>> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No offense taken Michlin, I think I got the analogy from reading the boards here and ya know.... & I hope (there is only so much typing I can stand) YOU know, I agree and disagree about equally, on some other things but had to sum it up... I am more against paying pro's at all, especially since it cant be done "right" right now with a sick dying sport base... So hope didnt offend, as I tasked about one of your many points you champion on about. I hope you know I do (and did) agree with the 125 thing, in the other threads Im prolly the 2% that posted agreeing... EVEN THOUGH being a red blooded "AMERICAN," I hate the 125cc idea "in general." but i see it like VHS VS betamax, it is in the wind!!! Small chance in hell the euro's can undo that bull___p law so we're stuck with it, as far as I can tell, right???? BTW, I was promptly tossed over to the dogs on that agreement about the 125 thing, at home, think it is a freedom in the USA issue :madsanta: . On the points you (I quoted in bottom of the above quote), about the kid riding 290 Maybe you finally posted it the way I try to defend myself on this 125 topic, but fail. if all the kids have 125's in THAT class, then what is the big deal, where does the "BUTTER KNIFE to a GUNFIGHT" fit then? We send the butternives to the BUTTER KNIFE fight, instead of to the MACHINE GUN FIGHT, right? Seems settled to me... Do you guys see what he is saying? It is NOt that difficult. it is the CHICKEN or the Egg thing. Make the 125 National or pro classes types of class for the kids, and they will COME, right now they will p*** and moan maybe but later it will be just OK. It is just like anything else, when you Highschool loses the winningest coach for the last 12 years, the next years seniors get screwed, Hell our generation (30-40 year olds) been having that lesson all our lives, BTW because everyone did what they did when they was our age, then legislated it out of existance... and I emphathize with that, the "transition group" is going to be motivated or lost, I guess. Shoot the dog now or let the next victum shoot the dog, hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Good conversation men! Craig, pointing out it is imposible to ride a 125 in the US Pro class is important. How can Patrick beat Geoff with a butter knife "125cc bike" when Geoff has a 280cc machine gun? Nigel pointing out that an American will not be a world champion contender unless he is on a 125 at Patrick's age is also important. I'd call that catch 22 and the pickle that the NATC has created for the best US youngsters. Remember my claim that the NATC did not want US riders as world round contenders anymore! Unless they "NATC" change their actions, they are the main roadblock to the best US riders getting back into the world games. I also agree with Sting that sadly we may need to throw away this generation of riders! If Patrick dose not win a 125cc World championship round in the next 2 years, he's done! The NATC forcing him to move up to a 290cc bike creates a huge handicap for Patrick to overcome and he may become one of the lost generation of riders also. Clive, I believe your idea is a sound one. In fact that was the foundation of the El Trial De Espana. The focus of the event in the beginnig was to send young riders to the Spanish round of the world championship. The program was a huge success and layed the foundation for Bernie winning a world title and several other Americans scoring world points. It was a very tight program, with pre-planned trips and tours of the factories, training and even dinners with Mr. Bulto. Some years the program was so successful up to 7 riders went from the proceeds. These organized overseas trips made a large number of US top riders aware of international competition. They saw the international trials culture and the riding levels they needed to rise to. Because a large number of US riders saw first hand where the bar was set by the Europeans, they brought that insight back into our community. Which forced everyone to kick it up a few notches instead of simply coasting year after year like we see now. Consider when one rider goes to Europe to do a world round, they come back and tell stories about World Trials yet the impact on the US community is small. When several riders go and come back with the same story, it has much more impact on the American trials culture overall. Now, recreating the original El Trial atmosphere is a good idea. This is not enough however. We need the cooperation of the NATC to remove the catch 22 roadblocks they have created that keep American's like Smage at an international disadvantage. Unless he is encouraged to remain on the same 125cc machine as his world wide peers, he will be at a huge disadvantage and fall behind very quickly from the rest of the world. So the NATC is still the main roadblock on the topic of having US riders as world round contenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Good conversation men! Craig, pointing out it is imposible to ride a 125 in the US Pro class is important. How can Patrick beat Geoff with a butter knife "125cc bike" when Geoff has a 280cc machine gun? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't some little 125 butter knives, beat 280 machine guns in Duluth ? How do you guys posting, Judge the ability between a US expert class rider, a US pro rider, a Euro 125 world championship rider, and a world championship rider. If the 125 world butter knife champion rode the US championship series on his little butter knife, would he win it ? If the power of a 125cc machine becomes the excuse when a rider is in their early teens, what will be the excuse when a 280/300 plus machine doesn't get the results either ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Interesting question Ishy! How would the 125cc world champion do against Geoff and the US pro class? There is little doubt that the big bikes perform better in experenced hands, otherwise Dougie, Fugi, Raga or Cabby would perfer a 125cc machine. I can't really think of a time that smaller bikes ruled the day except the 200cc Tiger Cub winning the Scottish. Or maybe the 250cc Sherpa, Cota or OSSA during the late 60s early 70s. That does bring up another interesting question about our current US Pro class? They will be riding the same line as Woman's world champion Sanz at the US world round, how will our best Pros do against her? Will she beat some or all of the best USA men's riders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsurfer Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 If Sanz beats some or all of the US riders, that would put the Kabosh on the press they are supposed to recieve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Good Point Trialsurfer! I've pondered this situation for a while now. How many American Pro riders can She pick off? What if she beats all of them? If I was a US Pro rider I'd be out practicing so a girl wouldn't beat me! Do you suppose somebody planned this as a promotional stunt? Why else would our best US riders be put down a class with the ladies world champion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulsher Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 A promotional stunt that has the possibility of a BIG backfire!! If some are shamed by getting beat by the worlds best, what if a GIRL whoops them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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