Pre 65 Future & Pre 65 Rules

[ttspud]

29 minutes ago, davetom said:

Why don’t you ride Taverners, and why aren’t they more popular, if there’s lots of riders wanting that sort of event ?

I will when I can.  It looks great to me.  I am sure there are.  60 riders is a good entry.  The idea here is to protect what there is at the trials I know of, try to improve things sport-wide and go from there.  Maybe nothing can be done, but maybe something can be done too.

[ttspud]

8 minutes ago, woody said:

You deliberately isolate an extract from a sentence to comment on, twist it and use it out of context for your own agenda which ultimately leads to repeated accusations of cheating

Ok, then confirm this and it will not be 'twisted' in any way; if a bike enters a trial which does not conform to the club/event rules in any way, is that cheating?  That is what it boils down to.  Is it cheating or not?

[der_trials]

1 hour ago, der italian trials said:

The demand for events for original p65 bikes may already be satisfied by what out there Talmag etc.?

 

[ttspud]

@Trialsrfun

With the greatest of respect, I am not with you on that one.  What is your point?

[ttspud]

1 minute ago, trialsrfun said:

The question is exactly what it says, I would be very interested to know just what bikes people were actually riding in trials at all levels of trial competition at that time.

Great, there are some videos and discussions about it, on TrialsCentral also, start there.  It is great to see it all and learn about it.

[ttspud]

@trialsrfun

14 minutes ago, trialsrfun said:

You have strong opinions regarding what is and is not acceptable and what you consider is cheating so you must know the answer, time to tell!

So, you are trying to make a point, but the premise of your point is faulty.  In other words, whether someone is breaking the rules does not require any knowledge of anything other than the rules and the bikes.  Whether someone knows about the Open entry in 1952 has no bearing on whether a bike entered into a different sport in 2021 which has a non-replica 2021 frame in a trial that means that bike does not conform to their rules today, and whether that is cheating or not.  You were not really interested in the answer at all, I had already guessed that, hence the unusually brief response.

Perhaps you could have a go at the very simple question, "if a bike enters a trial which does not conform to the club/event rules in any way, is that cheating?"

[der_trials]

time for this topic to draw to a close I think

[woody]

1 hour ago, ttspud said:

Ok, then confirm this and it will not be 'twisted' in any way; if a bike enters a trial which does not conform to the club/event rules in any way, is that cheating?  That is what it boils down to.  Is it cheating or not?

So we're back to the Talmag again, one trial from many, as other events allow modified bikes so give it a rest banging on about rules you know nothing about and cheating riders.

The Talmag has no specials class, all of the bikes should conform to their original spec. Those that don't shouldn't be accepted. That is up to the club. They obviously choose to accept modified bikes and have done for years. No it is not cheating as it is all in the open, everyone can see it, nothing hidden. No-one claims to ride something it isn't. If someone entered on a bike that looked every inch original, claimed it to be original but had hidden or disguised modified parts to gain advantage, then that is cheating. That isn't what happens though is it

[ttspud]

31 minutes ago, woody said:

No it is not cheating as it is all in the open, everyone can see it, nothing hidden

I understand where you are coming from.  I disagree.  To me, not conforming to the rules is cheating, period. 

You believe that if something that does not conform to the rules is not hidden and the organisers do not call it out, then you see that as not cheating.   I disagree, I see cheating as cheating no matter whether organisers call it out or not, hidden or not.  The responsibility is both on riders and clubs.  But I do agree that the club has the responsibility to call it out, I do not agree that if they do not that that is not cheating.

Is cheating not disrespectful to other riders that are not cheating?

Have organisers confirmed to you that their rules are not there to be conformed to because they do not see non-conformance as cheating and will not confront you because of that?

31 minutes ago, woody said:

If someone entered on a bike that looked every inch original, claimed it to be original but had hidden or disguised modified parts to gain advantage, then that is cheating

Yes, that is cheating, and that is how it all started.  It is not as easy to confront cheating as you might think.  Riders do have responsibilty also, organisers have a lot of other responsibilities and do expect a little maturity and respect from the riders to not cheat.

Really, this is a difference in our positions that means that we arrive at different conclusions.  I see a problem in the non-hidden cheating, and you do not.

I am pleased to have got to this point, because, after 6 years, it does make sense.  Why the anger.  Why the upset.  Why the obstruction to something which I consider to be no great deal and fairly obvious, whereas you, not seeing non-conformity as cheating, do not.  Anyway, I do appreciate the trouble that you have gone to to not be personal, to put your point across clearly and accurately. 

Addition: Actually, the difference in position may not really matter in the end.  In other words, why not accept the two different positions ie 1) riders that do not want to conform and 2) those that do, and note that down, that is point really.  In fact, having some rules as suggested, noting the two types, would help both your position, and mine.

Edited November 26, 2021 by ttspud

[ttspud]

10 minutes ago, trialsrfun said:

Ttspud I do not know you, your opinions regarding classic trials may be well intended but unless you provide answers to legitimate questions you will annoy people.

Yes, I appreciate that.  I am working right now, and trying to put some answers in in between working.  I am not retired.  I do not want to go spend half an hour putting all the information that you asked for onto this website when you are quite capable of going to look it up for yourself.  And I do not believe that your point has any bearing whatsoever on trying to get some sport-wide rules in place whereby anyone, with whatever experience or age, is quite able to put in suggestions and help.  Your question might be legitimate, but it is not really very relevant.  I have just replied multiple times to Woody, I am a good day behind on work, and I need to get on, and Woody and I have just got to a very key point here, which is far more relevant than anything that has so far passed on here.  If there is a link between what you are asking and the rules, then do make that point, as in " I think there needs to be that class because in 1954 there was a class X with 100 riders in it", then great, please do so.  But I cannot post lots of information on 50/60s trials which is freely available for you to find.

[b40rt]

In a sport organised by unpaid volunteers, if you want to see changes made, it is you that is going to have  to get involved in organising / scrutineering etc.

I'm sure everyone wishes you well and will watch with interest.

[ttspud]

4 minutes ago, b40rt said:

In a sport organised by unpaid volunteers, if you want to see changes made, it is you that is going to have  to get involved in organising / scrutineering etc.

I'm sure everyone wishes you well and will watch with interest.

Thank you.

[ttspud]

1 minute ago, trialsrfun said:

If you are creating new class rules for competition then history is irrelevant but if it's for classic machine's then jt becomes essential to know the historic fact's before you make the rules, hence my question to you, now please provide the answer.

Well, I see.  I am not sure if you were here for the very first thread on this, because in the very first post it explained this very thing, that, no, of course I am not going to be the most knowledgeable person in this sport on the history because I was born later whereas others were there.  So, I openly asked for help on this forum for that very reason, more on the bikes than anything else but all aspects too, and it has taken this past 6 years to just get to the point of perhaps discussing such things as classes, let alone bikes, and we are not there yet.  If it is all left to me, fair enough, but I doubt it will be in the end.  Over the years, yes, I have learnt a lot about what went on, how things got here, and so on, which helps.  

To be fair, if this got to the point of actually becoming a set of rules, that the ACU oversaw, or another body oversaw, then yes, I would gladly put together everything necessary for clubs to know how to handle the rules, including original specs of bikes, literature about the history and so on.  But we are not there yet.  And I cannot commit that kind of time until we are nearer to moving in that direction, if in fact it ever does.  And things will change, other ideas will happen, I am not in any way suggesting that I know all the answers, clearly I do not, however, that is why this thread is here, to find ideas about how to move forward.  For example, other classic sports have a registration process to verify the bikes eligibility.  That is not being suggested here, but if there is a serious desire to go in that direction for very very original bikes or whatever, then so be it.  

I really must work now. I appreciate the point.

[davetom]

The sport may have its faults but the vast majority just enjoy it . It won’t be changing in a hurry, so either you do, or sell your bike to someone who wants to ride it . 
 

[trialsrfun]

Ttspud as I said previously you're most welcome to come along to the classic trials in this area in which I ride. Bring your bike and I'm sure you would have an enjoyable days sport and most likely make some new friends at the same time. At least then you would be getting some enjoyment from trials which clearly you are not at the moment.

I would be interested to know just what bikes people were using back in the day as I asked in my question to you, please answer that. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by trialsrfun