85 replies to this topic

[Andy M]

totalshell, on 19 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

massive twin shocks entry at todays red rode trial.. fascinating collection of bikes including merlin fantic yamaha honda montesa bultaco swm suzuki. the pre65 still largely out numbered the twin shocks 46 v 26.
peformance wise in the hard route the pre 65 bikes out shone the twinshocks easily in pre 65 you had to drop less than 20 to be top ten or 36 to be top 15 in the twin shocks you could drop 27 and 55 respectaively to achive the same place finish
the difference was even more marked but the result was the same in the clubman class, the best placed clubman twinshock would have been 9th in the pre65 class!!
overwhelmingly the majority of the pre65 stuff was specialist gear whilst in the twinshocks mods were few and far between with most bikes stock the only exceptions being forks.. 38mm is the route being taken with a mix of modern monoshock folks and yolks been used under an argument discussed above.. why pay money to have stuff as good as it was in 1980 when you can spend 100 quid at telford and get a complete front end from a recent mono shock.. a bit of alloy welding for the brake plate etc and job done..

No bickering then,normal classes etc, everyone just got on with it and had a good ride ??

[Old trials fanatic]

totalshell, on 19 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

overwhelmingly the majority of the pre65 stuff was specialist gear whilst in the twinshocks mods were few and far between with most bikes stock the only exceptions being forks.. 38mm is the route being taken with a mix of modern monoshock folks and yolks been used under an argument discussed above.. why pay money to have stuff as good as it was in 1980 when you can spend 100 quid at telford and get a complete front end from a recent mono shock.. a bit of alloy welding for the brake plate etc and job done..

Firstly i'm glad everybody had a great day out as it should be.

The "arguement" only came about because as your post suggests "overwhelmingly the majority of the pre65 stuff was specialist gear" the question croped up "Do we want twinshock to go the same way as P65?" well "38mm is the route being taken with a mix of modern monoshock forks and yokes being used" well isnt this the same as what people get so up in arms about with P65? Except that you need to do something to a P65 to make it something worth riding but where do you stop?

So does it matter if Twinshock follows the same path as P65? Going from the entry at the Red Rose it looks like the vote is a resounding NO!it doesnt matter. Get the welder out ! Just feels a shame to me but the riders will decide.

One other thing, i know i'm going to get shot for this, were the riders on P65 as good as or better than the riders on Twinshocks or are we saying Twinshocks arent as capable as P65 bikes? Incidentally i have noticed the same thing often in our results with often the P65 and Twinshocks beating the Air Cooled monos too.

Look either way a good day was had by all and thats is great well done all the organising team

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 20 February 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Andy M]

Old trials fanatic, on 20 February 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Firstly i'm glad everybody had a great day out as it should be.

So does it matter if Twinshock follows the same path as P65? Going from the entry at the Red Rose it looks like the vote is a resounding NO!it doesnt matter. Get the welder out ! Just feels a shame to me but the riders will decide.

[Woody]

totalshell, on 19 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

massive twin shocks entry at todays red rode trial.. fascinating collection of bikes including merlin fantic yamaha honda montesa bultaco swm suzuki. the pre65 still largely out numbered the twin shocks 46 v 26.
peformance wise in the hard route the pre 65 bikes out shone the twinshocks easily in pre 65 you had to drop less than 20 to be top ten or 36 to be top 15 in the twin shocks you could drop 27 and 55 respectaively to achive the same place finish
the difference was even more marked but the result was the same in the clubman class, the best placed clubman twinshock would have been 9th in the pre65 class!!
overwhelmingly the majority of the pre65 stuff was specialist gear whilst in the twinshocks mods were few and far between with most bikes stock the only exceptions being forks.. 38mm is the route being taken with a mix of modern monoshock folks and yolks been used under an argument discussed above.. why pay money to have stuff as good as it was in 1980 when you can spend 100 quid at telford and get a complete front end from a recent mono shock.. a bit of alloy welding for the brake plate etc and job done..

Just had a look at the results and the two riders who tied for first Pre65 (and overall) are hardly mugs.... they are in the top few Pre65 riders in the country so the result isn't really a surprise.

Their bikes are more competitive than most pre80 standard twinshocks but not later bikes like 200/240/300 Fantic, late model SWM, Armstrong, Aprilia etc. Having said that, the event was a low scoring one for the winners in each class and the result would be more a test of concentration as opposed to who had the better bike. A set of 38mm forks on a twinshock wouldn't offer any advantage.

To illustrate (and this is the only reason I mention it) I came out top overall on the B route of a modern trial at the weekend on my Bultaco. Obviously all the modern bikes have at least 38mm forks, more power, better rear suspension, brakes etc. However, the sections were within the capabilities of the Bultaco, consequently the superior performance of the other bikes made no difference. The sections weren't hard enough to exploit the difference. Had I ridden the A route - different matter...

I lost 9 marks, and 5 of those (not a 5) were down to an erratic and sticking front brake. The remaining 3 and 1 were down to my mistakes. The bike (dodgy front brake excepted) could have cleaned the trial. Had I had discs, or at least a front disc, I would have halved my score.

Out of all the modern mods you can make to a twinshock, discs would be by far the biggest advantage, way more than modern forks. I don't like them personally and prefer them not fitted, but 38mm forks add virtually nothing in terms of performance advantage in the standard of events the bikes are ridden in.

Discs however, would and thankfully they are banned.

And in reality - how many of those twinshocks actually had 38mm forks?

[totalshell]

i agree there were some very handy riders out and thats why i quoted top 10 and 15 scores not first or second so as to give a better picture.

that yer average joe in clubmans on a p65 bike is dropping far fewer than the twinshocks is the main marker to me as thier bikes are generally not as 'trick' as the experts.

riding the fantic i certainly enjoyed the trial on a bog std bike

)

[Kuma]

I did not have the time to read the entire thread but I think I got the idea of it, an entry level class with a cap on the investment, what about a class that the winner has to sell his ride for the cap limit, if someone wants to invest 3000 into their ride for a win, then they will loose 2000? aren't there some types of sportsman races that are somewhat setup like that now for cars?

[Old trials fanatic]

Kuma, on 02 March 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I did not have the time to read the entire thread but I think I got the idea of it, an entry level class with a cap on the investment, what about a class that the winner has to sell his ride for the cap limit, if someone wants to invest 3000 into their ride for a win, then they will loose 2000? aren't there some types of sportsman races that are somewhat setup like that now for cars?

Would you enter with that precondition? I know i wouldnt i'd just ride somewhere else. So how many entries would that trial get?

[shedco]

With regard to modifications on twinshocks giving an unfair advantage, a good example was shown at OTF's last event at Dudwood - Derbyshire.

A pensioner (75year old) came 4th on the hardest route on a tuned up moped.

It doesn't matter how good or crap the bike is, trials is about the riders ability or lack of it.

Edited by shedco, 02 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Bisby]

• And if there was a world trials championship for the over 70s peter gaunt would be champion!

[Old trials fanatic]

Bisby, on 03 March 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

• And if there was a world trials championship for the over 70s peter gaunt would be champion!

Very true he gave you a good run for your money just 1 point behind you good ride BTW for both of you. Would be great to see you both at more of our events this season

[Trialsin1]

Interesting stuff!