84 replies to this topic

[scorpa3]

I am a big advocate of returning to full non-stop rules for all. This is mainly due to trying to explain the complicated system which we now use to new observers.
However, the perfectly good points which your anonymous observer makes would stand regardless of the system being used.
It boils down to observing being a subjective matter. No two people see exactly the same thing all the time.
Reading the letter, I think the writer generally backs what you have been saying.
We need and appreciate observers and most of us fully understand the position they are in when faced with making a decision, it's just a shame that there are odd occasions when a rider behaves badly.
All we can do is to try and show a good example to our peers.

[Adsy]

Well said scorpa3, I could'nt agree more.

[RogerRoger]

Given the interest that this thread has generated, could we have a poll - full no stop v anthing goes? It might be a bit easier than marking up a whole trial no-stop and seeing how many turn up! If we then had some consensus, maybe a concerted campaign for some consistency (and leadership) from the ACU...

This has to be one of the most important issues in trials today, as it affects how attractive it is to newcomers and (most importantly) to observers. Perhaps they should be given the casting vote?

[scorpa3]

A poll would be a good idea.
But don't forget there are a lot of very good trials which are already run non-stop now. I would make a bet that the poll would come out almost 50/50 across the board.
Different groups will have different opinions.

[John Collins]

Whilst this is an interesting thread - I seem to recall we have had this debate many times before.

RogerRoger - asks for leadership and consistency from ACU.

Easy to say - but not so easy to do as I have said before.
Everyone wants one consistent rule - as long as it’s theirs?

Just read the previous threads - and see if you can find a consistent answer.

Can I ask a question? If the decision was tomorrow for ONE consistent system - and Roger Roger was the man to decide. What would it be?

Now to the real world.

There are 3 alternatives - and if you wish for serious debate you need to consider the issues - and just for once without mentioning the Scott or Scottish or any other example. We need to try to start with a blank sheet of paper.

The marking systems we consider are:

a) F.I.M - we have already debated this and it is now established that this system will be tried for 1 year in Brit Solo Adult Champ only.
Probably the main reason for doing this is to align with the UEM and FIM where we have riders competing - and not just a few riders - as I keep hearing from those who like to ignore simple things like actual facts.

Will it work? Who knows? Is it a step backward? Possibly?

Will it help our younger riders to compete on World and European stage - probably?

All of above obviously questionable - so this is why it is experimental for one year in one Championship i.e. the Brit Champ. End of story.


Someone talked about leadership. I am afraid cannot take seriously those who are critical of even trying such a system that is adopted by the rest of Europe and the World. To just dismiss it year after year out of hand is not leadership - just stubbornness - it is certainly not leadership.


Now to the possibly what this debate is more accurately about - and what concerns all our other Trials.

We have 2 systems - commonly known as No-Stop and Stop Permitted.

This is actually probably the wrong description - as of course in both the intention must be not to stop?

In actual fact the real difference in simple is that in TSR 22A if you stop you get a 1 and in TSR 22B (which we tend to call Non Stop) - if you stop you get a 5.

So in the two methods we us in UK - basically Stop = 5 or Stop = 1.

Now I have again stated that personally - as an older rider of extremely limited ability I prefer TSR 22B - No-Stop. I think most people of my age/ability would say the same.

Often said the Clerk of Course marks more natural, straighter sections in No-Stop Trials - and I think this is probably true.

What is the real problem however with the same Clerk of the Course marking out the same straight, enjoyable sections for TSR 22A? Possibly that the riders if allowed to take 1 for the stop can line up the bike etc and then this makes the section easier for them - so C/Course makes it harder/tighter?

I am far from convinced however that that many riders intend to stop - I think they would still try to ride totally without stopping - and incurring a 1 mark penalty (or at least the chance of it)

It is this last point that is actually the crux of the matter - and the point that the person opening the thread was I think trying to make.

I think the debate really stared by pointing out that in lots of areas - and Trials - an Observer - probably does not give that instant 1 for stopping?

Why is this? Let us start by all remembering that he is the person we are relying on to enjoy our Sport. He is unpaid, out all hours and not that often thanked.

In the real - head out of the sand world - why does the Observer actually wait in lots of instances that second or two before allocating the 1?

I can actually think of only two reasons

A) In his( or her- sorry) own mind they are happier and more confident if they feel they have given every rider a chance - and they are now sure that the rider deserves this 1 as it was a definite - advantage gaining stop?

Awarding the rider a 1 - even if they only stopped for a millisecond - will never be a popular decision - and will often perhaps bring about argument/glares/comments from riders mates supports etc etc.

Yes I am well aware that this should not happen - and I am well aware that there are penalties etc for any rider doing so - but unfortunately it has become the all too often norm (and not just in out sport)

There will be some who will deny that this happens and that no rider acts in this way - my only comment is before you read any further have a glance out of the window at those pigs flying past.

There will be some Observers who take a pride in doing the job absolutely by the book - and this is great and good luck to them. Obviously if everyone did the same there are no problems - but as I have said - let us be realistic. We rely on the good nature and services of every Observer throughout our sport - if they do not do it exactly by the book - what shall the Organiser do?

Sack them? Send them down the pub? Not use them again? Give them a rollicking? Just think how disappointed all the Observers are going to be to not be allowed to stand on a section on a wet and windy day for hour after hour and take abuse and advice those who never do the job room.

How earths will my postman cope with all the letters of complaint?

There will always always - whatever the system - be variations in marking - as it is a JUDGMENT. Ice skating, Dressage, Diving, dancing, boxing and a list of hundreds of sports are in the same category. The Judge or judges (Observer) makes a judgment on a competitor’s performance.

If they are consistent between riders - what is the real problem?



Let us move to TSR 22B - No -Stop.

In principle great - and as I have said the method I like and rode for many years.

BUT.

Logically if we go back to the principles I have outlined of Mr or Mrs Observer
Being a little reluctant to give an instant 1 for that stop - am I the only one who is wondering why they would be happy to give a 5 for the very same thing?

If we accept that riders can and do try to influence an Observer when they are not happy with a 1 - are we seriously saying that throughout the country those riders would be happy if it was a 5 instead?

No arguments? No abuse? Easier to find Observers/ Every rider delighted with this situation?

Whoops - I just saw another pig go past.


Finally - those who ride and enjoy the TTSR 22B - No - Stop trials - including myself - great. Hopefully the Observers in these trials are well used to the situation and are happy with it.

Why an earth though should anyone be as arrogant and self centred as to wish to automatically impose this on thousands of other riders who enjoy the TSR22A system.

I honestly believe if people had not kept harping on - even at World level about the huge benefits of Non Stop - then the FIM would have been far more inclined to stay with the rules they used for many years i.e. TSR 22A - same as ours - which I think were far more superior to what they now use.

Many younger riders have not necessarily ridden No-Stop; machinery has changed - making it far easier to stop - etc

The real debate is back to should it be 5 for that stop or 1? And which is the best for the Observers.


If the time ever comes when the Observer can just “record" a score from some electronic device etc - which is what the FIM have been trying to achieve for years - it will open up a whole host of possibilities.

Until then - what is the problem with us all just enjoying our sport as we can?

Organisers choosing what suit them best? Riders entering the events they prefer? Of all the issues threatening our sport - and making it harder and harder to find places to run why on earth we are drivelling on about leadership and guidance when there are more important things.

Younger and Older riders - please take some advice from someone who has wasted too many years worrying about such things.

Just get out on your bikes and enjoy.

[RogerRoger]

John Collins, on Feb 16 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

Can I ask a question?  If the decision was tomorrow for ONE consistent system - and Roger Roger was the man to decide. What would it be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was arguing for consistency based on consent and the needs of the observers, not for one method or the other. If we don't require consistency, then forget the whole thing.

[bikespace]

The problem is nobody really knows what the answer is. You can't expect someone (even the governing body) to make a decision like that when the trials community is so divided.
I can't really say any more, because John Collins seems to have said it all in his post. It's everything I was thinking without being able to put it in to words (Honest )

I think our best course at the moment is to let the clubs choose the rules (strictly between TSR22A and TSR22B - we don't need any more rules) (obviously with the riders opinions taken in to account) and try to point the observers in the direction of actually marking pretty damned close to the rules.
You've got to let observers have their own opinions, but would start to make things better I think if we all actually get a dab for stopping (a definite stop, not a tweak of the break, or compression of the forks).

Whatever way it turns out every club has a responsibility to make sure ******** riders keep their traps shut if an observer doesn't mark things their way.
I'll be giving it a big mention before our next trial for sure.

[rabie]

very good response John

rabie

[MotoXMarge]

Just to fill everyone in on where I am coming from, I like John Collins, hail from an era of non stop rules and I can even remember when a 2 was introduced to much shaking of heads !

Now however ani domini has stopped my riding, or should I say passengering - Yes as a sidecar competitor I never had any trouble defining a stop as it usually meant you were stuck and not making any forward progress !

I now observe for my club in the SE - probably 4 times a year and each time before I do, I now have to get someone to talk me through just what I am meant to be doing ( we run 22A and 22B events )

Recently my club ran an open trial under 22A but it was not the stopping decision I had a problem with as a non riding observor. My problem came when some competitors chose to put the front brake on, depress the forks and swing the back around to negogiate a tight turn which, other conpetitors had managed to ride round.

22A(d) " The rider intentionally moves either wheel to the side without forward motion " - so that really should be a 5 but I had riders query this and want a 1.

This sort of skill was introduced several years ago when bunny hopping first came in and reading the rules of both 22A and 22B now, I can't see anywhere where this is allowed - which I think is a shame.

To sign off from a non riding obersorver's point of view I don't have a problem with a stop being a 1 or 5 where I do have a problem is 22A (d) and thats where I think something needs to be clarified.

[rabie]

you lot think you have it alright debating this here, when i go home i have to placated my mother (motoxmarge) about the fundamentals of TSR22A,B, etc!!! (both are qualified CofCs as well as my Dad!)

fun for all the family

rabie