GasGas is a huge success story with their range of products and a 45M turnover is nothing to be sniffed at. I looked at their accounts ( got a full report) a few years ago and they were in huge debt then but managing it .. just !
It doesn't surprise me we are here again.. They should survive this I would think because the product is a sound investment. It will be the management that are the weakest link and will need to be changed.
On the back of the big euro quantitative easing program, there will be money available so that should help..
Atomant #87 - why bother to read it and post if its painful?
Firstly, I picked this thread up just recently so I read it from front to back in all one go... Big mistake ! I am just trying to see how all this has any relevance to your initial post on EFI where you stated it was too expensive and shouldn't be on a trials bike ! The experience with people who have actually owned a 4RT or an OSSA, is that FI has been a successful innovation.. but saying that, people are obviously happy discussing this so C'est la vie ! For me, I just remembered a wall I painted in 2013 and I'm not sure the paint has dried.. so I better go watch it !
If the approach of Vertigo is to develop the bike all next year and then possibly start selling them in 2016, I think that may be pretty smart. Jotagas and Ossa both had problems on their first bikes and that tainted the market for them. For peeps to see a Vertigo close up and see how it performs, and see that any problems are ironed out before they feel comfortable to start selling them, this will give potential buyers huge confidence in buying them from the start. Could be a stroke of genius ?
My preference for carburettors on 2T trial engines is based on their low cost and reliability. EFI can never be achieved at this low cost and its inherent complexity means more components to fail. To be fully self tuning EFI needs inlet air mass flow sensing, Lambda and knock sensors. There are oil contamination issues on air flow and Lambda sensors on 2T which are difficult or impossible to overcome.
I think we all get your preference by now I know one thing for sure, I don't think you would get very far offering a carburetor conversion kit for a Vertigo though ! good luck with that one
Do I know more than Vertigo? I don't know but I have been working on EFI since DL was running round in shorts and am am well aware of its drawbacks. My perspective is that of a club rider who has to run bikes on a budget, DL and Vertigo backed by a multimillionaire will have a different perspective. Again if you look at another post I made I said I would rather carry a 50 pence screwdriver than a £500 laptop and leads.
A Dellorto PHBL is something like £120 / £140 very reliably and easily adjusted.
EFI needs an injector, TPS and various other sensors, high pressure pump, pressure regulator, ECU and extra wiring loom and power, larger alternator + rectifier + capacitors (or battery). All this adds cost and complexity (more to go wrong), EFI is more sensitive to fuel and oil quality. One of EFIs advantages (on 4T) is its ability to respond to Lambda output. Lambda sensors are expensive and not suitable for 2T nor the environment in which a trial bike is used.
If fuel spill from carbs becomes an environmental issue a catch tank on the drain tubes and a simple diaphragm pump to return it to the tank is a simple cheap solution.
Ok we all get you now - You think the the whole trials scene should be based on 30+ year technology to ensure that the costs are cheap for the rider and its simple to fix!, but you are so missing the point ! People like technologies to advance and be part of it - Just like people of old liked to mess with jetting, they now like to experiment with mapping. Trials has always been about the machine and not just riding it.
Trials is still a very cheap Motorsport if you want it to be that way and for others, its a hobby that they love and enjoy by changing things on the machine - Just look at the custom after sales parts available that people buy!.
So, please move on from your tired position - I think we are all getting bored with it now..
This new video I predict will exceed everything that has gone before in maximum views - The combination of scenery, music and stunning cinematography have got the balance just right - Produced by the same team that did 'The Ridge' they are just the best in the business right now ... This sets a new benchmark in sports videos when we have man vs nature.
The production on this is the best I have seen as yet - very much in the style of "The Ridge" ( hardly surprising as done by the same team) and it must of cost a fortune to produce ! Excellent - The outtakes are epic
Well said Hilary, atom ant you need to get out more if this is what you watch on tv .
I think you are confusing me with someone who gives a **** ! Most of the stuff I watch and read is quite intense so I need something to balance it out and this works just fine for me - On the contrary, you are probably taking it all a bit too seriously and should chill out a bit. Have a beer oh, and have you heard that saying, "Don't take life too seriously as you don't get out alive "
Gotta disagree bigtime - Only motorcyclist's knew who Foggy was and now he is a household name - He has just been offered a million pound contract to do a sports talk show and he has shown to the nation, that all motorbike people aren't thugs (which has been the opinion of quite a few people). On a personal level for him , he will never look back from this and it certainly will not do the sport of motorcycling any harm.
The program itself is just lighthearted entertainment and it is to not be taken seriously. Ant and Dec are great presenters and very funny and really make the show. We have watched the whole series this time and there have been times when we have been wetting ourselves. OK, some of the girly stuff has been a bit tedious but overall, its good entertainment. You need to lighten up Hillary, Bah Humbug you grumpy git
Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts.
That is a ridiculous claim to make. The overall performance of the machine is down to lots of things that need to come together in harmony, so to single out the fuel delivery system alone and point to that by saying it hasn't shown a competitive advantage is just plain stupid. . And then there is the Rider to add in as well of course !
You must just be a troll - That is the only way to explain your posts.
My name is Ian - I have had this problem for a long time and want to share it with you ... I have been having nightmares about my GG gearbox failing whilst I am on a clean. It sends shivers of dread and fear through my body - I wake up in a sweat and scream at the top of my voice ." NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" - Fortunately, it has never happened ( Gearbox failure or a clean ). I am on medication right now and hopefully will get better in time. Thank you all for listening ...
Dadof2 - Come clean with your motives here. You trash the new Vertigo and you have spent many hours on this thread trashing Gas Gas without even owning a modern one. You also trash anything that isn't still powered by stoking the flames to get up enough steam!
By the way, I have owned a 2010 and a 2012 gasser pro 300 and both bikes were great and I didn't have any problems at all.
It has been mentioned before in this thread but the quality of maintenance MUST be a factor in a bikes reliability. I was fortunate that both my gassers were maintained by Mick Danby, hence the reason they ran so well and never had any problems.
I have also had 5 Shercos and they are a good bike too - I didn't have any problems with the 2T's just the well documented problems with the 4T
Oh I just picked this one up ! I read back and noticed that dadof2 is suggesting the ford V6 cologne engine is more efficient than a modern day V6 ..
So you would prefer a Ford Cologne V6 2.9 - with this design first being introduced in 1964 but this model , the 2nd generation first being introduced in 1974
Over something like this - The awesome Audi V6 3.2 litre
Getting to know you like I am, I can understand your choice ! - It is simple - You prefer the bigger, heavier, less powerful and thirsty engine because its got a 30+ year proven track record over something which is lighter, more powerful ( power per kilo ratio), less thirsty with lots more modern features, but isn't quite so old... There is a theme here don't you think.?
If Vertigo came out with their new machine and it had Drum Brakes, Vintage suspension set-ups , magneto and points - etc etc - that would make you happy wouldn't it ?
dadof2. You clearly want the most basic machine possible and that's fair enough, but Vertigo are attempting to break new ground for a trials bike, Monoshock, Water cooling, Fuel Injection - Ignition Mapping and others have all come and others will follow. This is just another step in the evolution of trials bikes and for me, I have to admire someone taking a risk and due respect for that.
Steve, this is what you wrote on #99. " Perhaps even improving engine performance as there will be no resistance when reving."
Had what you wrote been true, the Vertigo would have been really remarkable, its water pump being no less that a perpetual motion machine. Now that you have explained what you meant I agree with what you were trying to say.
I have actually read quite a lot of in depth research on electric water pumps for internal combustion engines and they do have potential advantages for warm up and fuel economy but they also have significant drawbacks of which reliability is just one and that is why they have not been widely used on cars.
Here are just some of the drawbacks of electric pumps. Unless they are massively oversized for normal running they not capable of maintaining sufficient pressure at high engine speeds to prevent localised hot spots and boiling.
The alternator has to be sized to accommodate the pumps current draw, This in turn leads to the alternator having more static and rotating mass to be paid for, accelerated and decelerated.
Atomant #105. You are making a judgement on me based on far too little information. I actually have a very good track record on design and innovation.
The use of technology has to be appropriate, in the case of an electric pump I believe the increased complexity more than negates any performance benefit.
What increased complexity are we talking here? We are not talking about fitting a nuclear pulsed propulsion system, we are fitting an electric water pump ! .. First invented back in the 30's and there are just pages and pages of patented electric water pump innovations since then. Don't tell me why things wont work. Tell me how you can make them work !
Oh and another thing, did you see in that video any discernible loss of power from that engine due to the extra draw of the power to drive the water pump?
The electric water pump will put load (resistance) on the engine because of the torque required to generate its driving electricity. Then there will be efficiency losses during generation, rectification and in the electric motor of the pump itself.
The reason Beta cases corrode is because they are magnesium alloy (to make them lighter) and possibly more suited to thin moulding. Because of its position in the galvanic series relative to aluminium rapid corrosion occurs. Honda CR MX bikes suffered the same.
EFI on cars always desirable? - anyone priced a GDI recently?
Are you for real? you seem to be worried about the 'load' on the mag to generate the electricity to power the pump. So what about the load required to drive a mechanical pump and it's inefficiencies? Do you just sit there thinking of the most negative thing you can think of and spout this crap. Do you not think that designers learn from these things and re-design things to overcome these issues? I've been in design engineering/automation now for 31 years and what I've learnt in all the time, is NEVER work with people like you because nothing would ever get developed.
I am just trying to see how all this has any relevance to your initial post on EFI where you stated it was too expensive and shouldn't be on a trials bike ! 
The experience with people who have actually owned a 4RT or an OSSA, is that FI has been a successful innovation.. but saying that, people are obviously happy discussing this so C'est la vie ! For me, I just remembered a wall I painted in 2013 and I'm not sure the paint has dried.. so I better go watch it ! 
- The outtakes are epic 
Most of the stuff I watch and read is quite intense so I need something to balance it out and this works just fine for me 
oh, and have you heard that saying, "Don't take life too seriously as you don't get out alive " 
Gas Gas Future?
in Gas Gas
Posted
GasGas is a huge success story with their range of products and a 45M turnover is nothing to be sniffed at. I looked at their accounts ( got a full report) a few years ago and they were in huge debt then but managing it .. just !
It doesn't surprise me we are here again.. They should survive this I would think because the product is a sound investment. It will be the management that are the weakest link and will need to be changed.
On the back of the big euro quantitative easing program, there will be money available so that should help..
I hope they make it