michael_t

Not sure I agree 100% with that... I have worked with all levels of industry and government (municipal, provincial and national) to promote off road riding land access and insurance coverage. It may be that Canada is a little unique in this respect as our current Prime Minister's wife rides a dirt bike. The Nova Scotia Government heavily funded a York university study to show that dirt biking was an excellent form of activity. The Canadian Government has spent over $1m developing trails (through the National Trails Coalition). I am not sure about other Provinces but in NS as the head of the Off Road Riders Association I worked with the government to see the money was shared fairly 3 ways between the Motorcycle Association, ATV association, and Snowmobile association. I am a little disappointed if people are not interested in understanding exactly who the MCC is but they are heavily funded (must be over $1m annually) by the big bike manufactures to promote recreational and sport motorcycling in the country. Just 2 weeks ago I was speaking to the regional manager for Kawasaki and he stated that Kawasaki sees Nova Scotia as a model for other provinces based on the ground roots upwelling of support for off road motorcycling in the Province. None of this has anything to do with top level riders (just as the reason I am sponsored is not for being a top level rider) it has everything to do with supporting the increasing number of people who just want to get out and have fun on their bikes. It seems companies and the government agencies are willing to sponsor people for their performance in growing access to recreation and sport (not just riding well). Please don't under estimate the power and knowledge of the novice rider community in this country it isn't only the top riders and events that have what it takes we really need to work together. I do agree that having a world round here in NS would get a lot off attention if enough money was spent to really promote it (but I don't see the CMA supporting that). Unfortunately telling a mayor or a minister that we sponsored a rider from BC to go to the TdN would get us little recognition (even if they won). The government would be much happier to hear we sponsored a group of kids to introduce them to a sport that will keep them off the sofa. So for me I really need to see what the CMA plans to do. As I have pointed out, if the money is leaving the Province and no benefit is coming back (the way that some feel the CMA did in the past) then it is a real tough sell.

That was a long but very interesting read. If it is truly the North American Trials Council and not the USTC, then maybe we could have NATC events in Canada like the way Canada has a supercross in Toronto each year. It may be we really don't need CMA or WTC. Certainly sounds like the meetings are great fun and allow people of many different skills and abilities participate. Certainly another option to consider.

When I do a slow full lock turn I turn my head far enough so I can see my rear fender, this brings around my shoulders and sticks my ass out the other side... the first time I did it I couldn't believe the difference it made, it was a real "aha" moment for me. It is always great when you are riding with a more advanced rider and they give you tips like that to help illustrate what you are doing wrong.

You just need to be sharing them... forums like this can be a great tool for building the sport.

I actually struggle with this in many of the sports I am involved in (Trials, Biathlon, Sailing, Paddling) there always seems to be a bit of a struggle between high performance athletes and recreational athletes. It seems common that the high performance group would rather not fund the recreational group and vice versa. To me it is important that both groups recognize the value of each other and work together to further the sport. It isn't easy but IMO the more we can work together the better. I do recognize that all the members of the TAC are highly acclaimed trials riders. If you truly want to reach out to more potential riders you may want to consider folding in few people who have had success in landing large sponsorship deals or developing world class sport programs. I am just thinking there is much more to what you are trying to achieve than being great riders and sport ambassadors. I am very glad to see this discussion going in a more constructive and positive direction.

Sounds good but eventually I would like to have it recorded here (or on the CMA webpage). It really comes down to what are the CMAs plans and how any funding will be used to drive the sport and exactly where that drive is heading. I believe I am not the only one who would like to see the sport really take off but feel tossing money at something without seeing the plan is a tough ask.

I feel you may not want to further communicate about trials in Canada as you are unable or unwilling to answer my question as to where do the CMA funds go. This despite the length of time you may or may not have been paying them (lets not forget the CTRA days). As the WTC is a part of the MCC and its affiliated provincial organization might I suggest people read why they suggest you join... http://www.motorcycling.ca/join/ and compare it to the CMA webpage and why they feel you should join http://www.canmocycle.ca/ Seems pretty similar to me with respect to trying to support motorcycling in Canada the big difference being the MCC has been a substantial financial supporter of off road riding in NS for many years and the CMA has been a financial supporter of the FIM. Both are important and I see the benefit of both but if people are suggesting we have to choose then my choice is clear. I have been invited to Parliament Hill to speak on behalf of Motorcyclist as part of MCC. The CMA seems to be implying that I know little and that by being a sponsored rider and putting on free events and large demonstrations in front of 1,000s of people I am somehow undermining Motorcycling in Canada. If you don't want to answer the question that is fine but please don't suggest I am not worth speaking to.

Oh I suppose I should mention I really like Paul Yvonne as well. I have not had the opportunity to talk to Christy but have heard that she is very nice and a great Trials enthusiast. I was reviewing the CMA web page and see the nomination for Board members closes on October 8th in case anyone is interested. I was also reviewing the CMA trials results page and see 14 events listed for BC,SK and ON. On the WTC page they are missing our 5 Maritime events but Bob said he would get them up there at some point, that would give us 33 events for QC, BC, AB, NS and NB. My feeling is that having more events in more provinces is helping more than hindering - combined we have 47 events across 6 Provinces that is truly the best part of having the 2 groups they both have a lot to offer and should be celebrated equally.

I have posted on this site, I have talked in Person with Jonathan and over the phone with Steve and Marilyn (head of the CMA) and I have emailed Derek. Everyone is great to talk to and all have the best interest for trials in mind. However it seems everyone agrees there would (currently) be no benefit to the local riders for them to join the CMA. We have donated well over $1,000 to the CMA TdN team and as far as I know that is (currently) the CMAs only international trials endeavour (despite not sending a team this year). If there is a requirement for further funds just explain what they are for. I am at a loss why nobody seems to be able to answer this basic question... I love supporting trials but if the funds go to the CMA to support all the other facets of motorcycling I would rather keep the funds local to build more riding opportunities and trials events.

I wouldn't give up on anybody too quickly - As I say this has way more to do with the CMA of the past (and maybe the FIM), if it has truly changed this is a great forum to promote a new more transparent organization and win over the support of the country. As I have said all along I have nothing against joining but the older riders are a really tough sell so I simply need more than "the CMA support trials in Canada". As Canadians we are never good at blowing our own horns but sometimes it is needed.

Just for the record according to Wiki... A sports governing body is a sports organisation that has a regulatory or sanctioning function. Sports governing bodies come in various forms, and have a variety of regulatory functions. Examples of this can include disciplinary action for rule infractions and deciding on rule changes in the sport that they govern. Governing bodies have different scopes. They may cover a range of sport at an international level, such as the International Olympic Committee and the International Paralympic Committee, or only a single sport at a national level, such as the Rugby Football League. National bodies may or may not be affiliated to international bodies for the same sport. The first international federations were formed at the end of the 19th century So why have more than sanctioning body?... If an organization does not listen to its members it will not be supported by them. This is not an issue for the current TAC but a big issue with the CMA head office which seems to have upset people in the past and are unwilling to own it. I did check on incorporation and the WEC has been incorporated for many year as a "for profit" similar to the CMA and the trials division (the WTC) sits under the WEC in the same way the Trials group and the TAC sit under the CMA. As far as Derek's analogy to hockey - If I decided to setup a free pond hockey league and encouraged people to get out and participate on ponds across the country to have fun and unwind with friends. I really don't think the hockey association would say we were undermining the sport of hockey in this country. We might even open the sport up to a whole group of people who simply enjoy the good old days when you could get together with a group of friends and have a fun game of hockey - heck you could even make up your own rules like big brothers had to wear a sneaker on one foot. Most importantly it is getting people out to enjoy a great sport not undermining it.

Morning Steve, To tell the truth I originally thought your questions where rhetorical questions in order to make a point rather than to elicit an answer. After your second request to have them answered I gave it my best shot (sorry if I missed on #4). The long and the short of it is you are correct it is re inventing the wheel and at the end of the day maybe there isn't truly a need for and sanctioning body little lone 2 as everyone knows the rules and tends to be safe about it. So what is the purpose of the CMA as a national sanctioning body? other than the fact that they have an affiliation with the FIM and require fees to pay their staff members in support of a number of other motorsports in Canada? - you can take that as rhetorical is you like. I have repeatedly asked the CMA what they would do with the $1,875.00 (if I sent it) and still have no answer (or clue). I'm a little disappointed that as the head of the TAC you are not able to speak on behalf of the CMA but you obviously send them a cheque every year would it be fair to ask your own personal opinion where you believe your money has gone? You have repeatedly asked me to talk to the WTC to better understand what they are about so I have and am satisfied with the answers I have received. I have also asked the CMA many of the same questions and am still waiting for answers before deciding if it is worth investing in as a local rider. I should say that if I was an international rider I feel I would have no choice but to join the CMA... and I am fine with that but I would still like to understand where the money goes and what exactly it is being used for. Maybe this is more an issue with FIM than it is with CMA it just seems nobody is allowed to tell me. I am not threatened by the CMA they are asking me for money and I am saying no. I have people call and ask me for money almost everyday for one charity or the other some I say yes to some I say no to I do not find it threatening in any way and actually appreciate the opportunity to support a good cause but I always expect to be told where the money is going before I decide to support it.

Steve had some outstanding questions about the WTC so I will do my best to answer them from my own perspective as I see it: What are the goals of the WTC? To provide a standard set of rules and insurance for any club in the country that is looking for a lower cost option to get started in the sport of trials. My own experience has been the members (people who are associated with WTC) have been very friendly and helpful in answering questions about putting on events and the sport in general. Why does it call itself a National sanctioning body? Because it has a national presence (actually has trials in more Provinces than the CMA) It provides a rule book (to keep a set standard for events across the country) and looks for input into its rule book across all of its members, when requested it provides $5M liability insurance for trial events in this country. It even has an east and west national championship. Safe and fair events for all is what is being sanctioned should be all about (our sponsors agree). Who appointed them? Self appointed - luckily it is a free country. How does a " National sanctioning body" intend on being sustainable when there are no memberships, no fees, no members? If the purpose is to have set standard of safe events across the country it can be run very well by volunteers and a few good sponsors without having to send money to some foreign body. BTW Google seems pretty sustainable I use it all the time and have never paid any fees - Wealthy Sponsors help ? How does WTC think that they are helping the sport in Canada when they try to undermine the only National sanctioning body? I guess we don't agree that there is only one National body and are happy to provide an alternative for those that want to get into the sport. It seems to be working as the events continue to grow. If that undermines the CMA they may want to think about working with the WTC instead of against it. You raise money in your club to go towards the Tdn team, yet, the WTC has absolutely nothing to do with it, or fund it? That one is on me I organize our events but do it fro free... We raise more money than we need I know some WTC clubs put money towards more worthwhile things like cancer research... I decided on behalf of the club that I would like to support Jonathan and the TdN team. Not exactly what your point is (would you rather only accept support from CMA members?) I am fully aware I would need to join the CMA if I want to ride internationally but seen as I have never ridden in an event I didn't help organize I think I will be riding WTC events in Quebec first and if that goes well maybe I will think of becoming an international rider - Which I am sure will thrill my sponsors but at 52 chances are not great. Now I have just a couple of question for the CMA... If I had our members join the CMA and sent the CMA a cheque for $1,875.00 what will be done with it? How much would go to the FIM? How much towards the profits of the CMA (as it is a for profit company)?, how much to salaries for CMA staff? and what would the actually benefit the local rider who is only interested in riding local events? BTW you may want to look at the other national sanctioning bodies supported by the MCC that do not fall under the CMA. Maybe attend an annual Motorcycle Hall of Fame Dinner put on by the MCC to see which trials riders are being honoured.

Sorry Steve, I had to go to work I will attempt to answer your questions under the new thread as they really have little to do with the title of this thread "Discussion Forum Removed".

My personal belief is there is room and the necessity for both. I do see the need for the CMA and its affiliation with FIM for people who see value in that. It may be that in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) we are a still a bit to Scotch but there seems to be a resistance to sending $75 per person to Ontario for "the good of the sport". The CMA had a large presence in NS for many years with both Hare Scrambles and Trials but due to lack of support both sports where pretty much wiped out. We are slowly rebuilding but are doing it through the support of our own Provincially supported Off Road Riding Association which is funded by the Motorcyclist Confederation of Canada (MCC), The Department of Health (tax payers), The Department of Environment (collects an OHV fund from all OHVs registered in NS to the tune of $1.4M just for OHV user to use) and sponsors such as Beta, Sherco, Honda, Kawi, and local bike shops. Our members are strongly encouraged to join the organization (NSORRA) for $20 a year. Bottom line we have tremendous financial support so the fees don't have to be huge. When starting out I had never been to a trials event so went in search of a national body that could provide a rule book and the ability to be part of a wider rider community. with the local community being not very happy with the CMA the WTC was an easy choice (and it is also affiliated with MCC). Actually a number of motor sports have broken away from the CMA. The idea that people will continue to send money (I don't really care how much) to an organization that is not directly supporting riding in your community is a tough sell. This really has nothing to do with the current CMA TAC and its members and much more to do with the CMA as a larger organization that in the past took advantage of what it felt was a monopoly on motorsports. At the risk of p****** off an even larger community I could lump the FIM into the same category, I am sure they do great things but they need to be better able to articulate what it is they are doing for a Joe blow just looking for a fun place to ride with his buddies. I have talked to the head of the CMA in Canada (as well as Steve and Derek) and pointed out that if I ask the 25 local riders (who currently only ride locally) to pay $75 each exactly what will be done with that $1,875. ? To be truthful it isn't that much money and I could easily get it from NSORRA (if I asked nicely) and sign all the riders up if they liked it or not - but why would I? It is fine to say "to support trials in Canada" but to be honest I don't trust the CMA and it has absolutely nothing to do with Steve or Derek. We are happy to send money to the TdN team as we know exactly what it is being used for (hopefully beer). For the time being I do encourage people to join the CMA if they want to ride at away events that the CMA supports and I may join myself but just don't have what I need to sell it to the entire club. Just my .02

The forum on the Trials Canada has been closed. One of the issues on that forum was that every time a person wanted to talk about anything trials in Canada it quickly became a debate about the Pros and Cons of the different organizations. In attempt to put an end to that I am suggesting we use this thread for such discussion and can simply refer to it instead of having the same arguments in every new thread opened. We will need to police this ourselves but I suggest when ever a person feels the urge to slam or promote a trials organization we can refer them to do it in this thread. People who would rather not partake in the discussion can avoid it. I also suggest we keep it about the organizations and not have it turn into personal attacks on peoples intelligence or mental stability.

This started as a notice that the Trials Canada website had closed its forum section and quickly became a criticism of the WTC. If we want to debate the pros and cons of the different organizations lets do it under a properly titled thread. The purpose of this will be so that every time a good person wants to put the effort into organizing events and post information about it they can do so without being pulled into this long standing debate. For people who are really interested in this long standing debate they can refer to the thread especially set aside for that purpose.

Seems forums have lost favor with some. I guess it is not surprising when it seems that people have nothing but criticism for people trying to provide a free service for people. Steve may find it humorous but I bet Andy could enlighten people as to how hard it is to keep a forum well administered and popular across a wide and varied audience. With respect to World Trials Canada I thought it was pretty cool that they were involved in at least 35 days worth of trials events this year in Canada from April to October and in 5 Provinces across this great country of ours. I know I had a blast at the ones I attended including an awesome day of training with a top Canadian trials rider. I have heard that some people have started to put WTC stickers on their event posters just for the pure fun of it (and possibly to keep whiners away) - now that is humurous .

The Scorpa 4 tricks is very different than the Yamaha Tricker but it would be a good choice as well... BTW Ryan Young has had a used one on his classifieds adds for a couple of years now. Only $1,900 (most likely the one from the video)

I would think a Yamaha Tricker clone would be a great bike to play around on. I always thought they where a great bike but they never made it to North America.

I figured as much but thought it was worth mentioning.

That is a great point I posted a video on the video thread (life behind the bars) which I thought gave a good insight into the way Bou thinks. I know Steve felt I was behind the times but I feel it is relevant to this discussion. Maybe the question would be how much would you pay to be doing what Bou is doing maybe he has been independently wealthy all along and if just doing it for the pure fun of it - just joking but really I can't see anybody entering the sport for just the money. On a similar topic does FIM pay the teams or athletes for riding in their events in return for all the membership fees it gathers from the trials community around the globe? What sort of prize money is up for grabs at theses events?

Funny how people make assumptions and then are disappointed when things don't happen. I find sometimes my family has that issue with making assumptions about me getting house work done and then I go out riding instead. I had actually assumed they were planning on getting the full series in before offering it to the public all along and never saw any plans to indicate otherwise... mind you I will be disappointed if it isn't available for sale before year end. Maybe being in North America my attitude is a little different as we so often see great stuff in Europe that never even makes it here so the fact that is coming at all is a pretty cool thing.

https://youtu.be/45zLS6cHQO8

I thought I read somewhere that GG owed Adam 110K... one could speculate that was 1/2 a years wages (or maybe a full year) pretty hard to guess. Pretty hard to guess what any of my neighbours make little lone a world top trials rider. More important to me would be if people think they are great athletes and give back to the riding community and from all accounts it sure looks like they are and they do !!!