michael_t

That is great news Derek! I didn't realize you sat on the CMA board I have asked around locally who our CMA rep is but never got too far with it (didn't try that hard). I am very encouraged to hear that we have representation at that level and not just at the TAC level and sorry for not realizing it. I heard from Jonathan yesterday that he was in France I didn't even know we were sending a team... I usually like to send the team some money to support their efforts... It may be a bit late now but if the CMA is accepting support for the riders please let me know. I don't think the fact that more than one organization is putting on events in Canada "has" to be splintering (which is why I started this post). If you look at the Belanger family as an example they seemed to transition nicely from non-CMA events to CMA riding. If the kids of the 35 to 50 yr old crowd join into the sport because it is alive and kicking and then want to move into the CMA for higher level competition, I am not aware of any limitation that would stop them from doing it. If there is no Trials events at all in a kids local area I would see that as a much bigger problem for an aspiring rider to overcome. My issue is I have to listen to the 45 to 60 yr old crowd that are actually riding and keep them happy and coming out to have any chance of growing the sport - All of our events are totally volunteer run and totally free for the riders. We are happy to take donations and we "encourage" a NSORRA yearly membership ($20) but we never turn anybody away. We have grown from 3 to almost 30 riders... If we continue to grow we may very well need a "CMA option" for some of our riders. This is why I have been working so hard with Marilynn to understand her organization... but for now our current riders do not see the value in it so it isn't something I can sell them on (or wish to force on them).

I agree, this arguing between the groups does seem to be great for the sports growth. Another good reason to have both organizations. Working for a phone company you would think I would promote the idea of a monopoly but in the long run I think most will agree a little competition is always healthy (as long as it is kept civil - we are all Canadians after all).

And people wonder why the head of the CMA won't even visit the site - LOL ! Both Steve and Billy keep eluding to Dave's secret political agenda so maybe if they know what it is they could just spell it out for the rest of us. Reading between the lines it seems Steve was involved with the WTC originally to try and over throw the CMA... that was 4 or 5 years ago - get over it. It is possible that if the TAC fails with the CMA "maybe" it will be a renewed agenda item for the WTC - who knows. Billy refers to Dave's legacy - It is a great one! it spans more years than most riders on here have been around. Pretty ****ty to call it into question on this prestigious forum. Dave actually writes a great blog every day that covers all aspects of trials and a fantastic source of what is going on in the sport of trials - free for all to read. He has also introduced a huge number of riders to our sport. I could go on but I am far from an expert on the subject. Pretty sure both Billy and Steve know Dave has done more for the sport than most and should learn to be more respectful. I am still working on my response to who I am and why I think there needs to be 2 organizations... for what it is worth.

BTW Billy, you have not bothered to even try to answer my question to you... do you currently support the CMA by paying for a membership every year?

Billy you really shouldn't jump to such quick conclusions just because nobody answers your fairly lengthy post in under a day doesn't mean it won't get answered. I actually think I have been doing a pretty good job of answering your questions honestly and timely despite being in the middle of organizing a trials demo in Digby and our paddling team here in Dartmouth. It is 12:25 AM and I am going to bed and I am hoping to take a few days off... Honestly I thought you where asking those questions based on the thinking I was running for Pres - so I simply stated I was not - not sure how that makes me a politician in your eyes. I do see why officials of both the CMA and the WTC refuse to even visit the forums but personally I think it is healthy to discuss the issues with the sport and feel it will eventually lead to seeing a middle ground. Of interest to some would be the unfortunate fact that the first person to take a demo ride today on the trials bike I loaned managed to have a bad accident and had to be taken off to the hospital. I got the call early in the day... he was later checked out and released but it was 6 hours of my life that I was really happy I had put the appropriate insurance and waivers in place before the event.

As past president of a couple of non-profit organizations I have a great deal of pride in what I have accomplished - especially with Biathlon, and of course the NSORRA, I am currently the paddling chair for a local Canoe and Kayak club and we are in the middle of our Canadian championship here on our lake with 1600 athletes competing. I have no plans to run for president of the WTC or the TAC I plan on keeping my efforts local and do what I can to grow the sport here in NS. Although I do appreciate Bob as a supporter and the fact that Sherco sponsors me, I feel I have much more the accomplish here before going national . Cheers, Michael

Thanks for the note. I have spent the last 9 years checking out who is at the different parties (even took a trip out to BC) and I really do like everyone I have met so far. Even if they don't all seem to like each other I'm pretty sure they are way different people when they are on a bike instead of computer! I would also say that some are just way harder to get in bed with and they want to be paid for the pleasure. To me it is more about a long term commitment and mutual respect than it is about the money or how great they think they once where but that is just the way I am .

I'm trying ... even though it may not always seem that way. I really would like to see everyone in trials succeed. I'm only 53 so hopefully have a few more years to give to the sport. Some times it takes a little fresh blood to get things stirred up and moving. I am a big supporter of all the TAC members and would be happy to be part of it... I was super impressed that the majority of the TAC members made it to support Derek's event and/or had their kids compete... it certainly shows that they are living up to the priorities they had laid out. I did ask Marilynn about joining the TAC and she stated that is was purely up to Steve to name who he wants on the TAC and he has my email and phone number. I guess I would also need to pony up the $80 to be able to volunteer my time to help out. Just out of interest do you still pay CMA dues to support the organization? If not, might I suggest you make a donation specifically to one of their priorities listed above. Given the US dollar it is a great bargain and if you specify choose one of the priorities you know it will only be used for Trials (that is what I do) better yet just give it to Steve in support of his son. Every little bit helps.

Yes that is now clear and I agree whole heartily it would be best if the organizations could speak for themselves. When you started to weigh into the conversation a few posts ago, it sort of sounded like you were new to trials in Canada and genuinely looking for answers... As this has progressed it seems that may not be 100% accurate and if you believe everything you read on the internet it would seem you and Steve have been good friends for a long time http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/35898-another-canuck-eh/ I can't answer officially but am always happy to do the best I can to give my opinion (for what it is worth). So in reference to your 7 questions here is my opinion 1. The MCC web site stating "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada.". Yet the CMA was founded in 1946 for promoting motorcycling in Canada. - Both these statement are true maybe the MCC where not aware what all the CMA was doing in 2004 from my perspective they where doing little top promote trials in 2004 and really didn't start getting their act together until a couple years ago when Steve rejoined them and started the TAC. ​2. The WEC charges a yearly membership dues and a fee to ride a WEC event and is the legal owner of the WTC entity. - This is true however I do not believe the WTC is any more of a legal entity than the TAC is a legal entity of the CMA. It is also worth noting that there is additional insurance charges when the "event" is a race a trials event is not considered to be a "race" so there is no additional charge (unless you decide to serve liquor at the event . 3. The WEC has stated on a public forum that the WTC events are currently subsidized and that will at some point in time change. - This is true I believe it was posted in 2011 and as far as I know there is no current intention to change things. 4. The WTC has adopted the CMA trials rules as used by the FIM. - The WTC rules where originally based on the FIM rules but are updated by vote of the members we voted to not follow the FIM into the world of non stop trials so no we are not using current FIM rules. 5. The controversial name of World Trials Canada came from World Enduro Canada association which is also confusing the World enduro riders. Kind of like the US World series that is made up of 99% US teams with one sole Canadian team. So how can it be the "world series"baseball league. - This is true but I am promoting that we change the name... I can think of a bunch of names but it will need to go to a vote. ​6. Many of the WTC events offer insurance policies thru one of the event sponsors who is an insurance provider. - Wiesner insurance sponsors the WTC however as far as I know Oasis is the insurance company that the WTC uses to provide event insurance and as mentioned above it is a general liability policy that covers all events at no additional charge... Way better than the CMA charging extra for each event. 7. The chances of the WTC putting on a world round in Canada are slim to none and will still rely on the CMA to do so. With this being said how can they WTC fulfill their mission statement of "promoting Canadian trials on the global stage"? - I agree that as things stand today only the CMA is able to put on a world round in Canada and I think it would be great if they did. If it was up to me I would have the WTC jump behind such an event with large sponsorship money specifically for the event as a MCC "project"... If the CMA would accept it. Hope that helps...

Hi BillyT, I'm a bit confused with your post... you ask me to answer 7 questions with one answer and then say anything you or I might say is pointless... I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true. Please realize I personally have absolutely nothing against the CMA and I respect the fact that Marilynn chooses not to visit forums. She did send me an email to let me know somebody had contacted her about me posting here... I let her know what I had posted and she said she was fine with it. Hi Derek, I thought your post was great as it really helps to see your point of view. As you say we are both in a similar situation as far as getting things going in our areas. It often comes down to 1 or 2 individuals who decide to try to build something that really make all the difference. You came into this from a pro riders perspective who had experienced great support from the CMA in the past, so the path you choose makes perfect sense. I came into this in a different era and from a different perspective. Here in NS we had legislation changes that could have spelled the end of off road riding (other than closed course riding). I got involved with a few others and with the support of the Provincial Government, National Government and the MCC, we started the NSORRA to organize off road motorcycle riding in the province. I am very proud of the fact that NSORRA now has over 900 members. As part of that organization we had a struggling Hare Scrambles series that was sanctioned by the CMA (we were lucky to get 20 riders out to most of the races) and our CMA sanctioned trials events had stopped completely. For Scrambles we moved away from the CMA got our own insurance and sanctioned our own races. We also secured roughly $200k in funding to build ride areas and hire a half time admin person. The Scrambles series is now getting roughly 150 riders per event and even has its own electronic timing system. We also started a trials series which now has 5 or 6 events a year I know $80 is nothing these days but we actually had a guy drive over 100 km to a CMA scramble with a nice truck and new bike and when he was told he would have to join the CMA to race he loaded up and drove home ??? - and it was only $60 back then. This makes absolutely no sense to me but it did leave an impression. I get the feeling that people feel if the WTC went away people would have no option but to join the CMA... they are forgetting the very real option of simply not riding in sanctioned events or any events at all. As a person that is trying to grow a sport I feel I need to listen to the riders and the riders in this area are very clear they are not interested in returning to the CMA... Sending money West and see nothing return to the East really seems to rub people here the wrong way... although I am glad to hear some of the money did manage to get to you and help your trials career. As far as sponsors go I am not sure what the fear is all about... Believe it or not money is not the root of all evil. It takes investment to make things grow. Currently there is huge potential for investment into the sport of Trials in North America. Honda has invested heavily in bringing trials bikes back into showrooms. Our local trials shop sells a bike every year or 2 by contrast the Honda dealer sold out the 6 bikes he brought in and has ordered 2 more. The distributers are eager to invest they are happy to loan bikes and sponsor riders. If we don't allow them the opportunity to invest in our sport to help it grow for the benefit of all it will most likely just die off again. If you are really afraid that having sponsors will ruin the sport you really need to reconsider your affiliation with the FIM - just sayin! Here is a question for people... We are putting on a trials demo at the Wharf Rat Rally this weekend (big biker bash) the hope is to make trials more visible to a large group of motorcycle enthusiast. I helped arrange it and put it under our insurance but can't attend. We had 4 riders volunteer to put on a demo and I loaned my bike for anyone who wanted to give it a try. The Rally is providing room and board and although it is a 4 day event we said we would just do Saturday and Sunday. They are paying us $2k. I will receive the cheque on behalf of NSORRA and can then spend it. If you where me would you write a cheque to the CMA to cover our 20 local riders $80 membership fee and use the remainder to cover CMA event sanctioning fees? or would you keep the money local and spend it on developing a training area, bringing in pro trials riders for training, buying tape...etc? or just pay the riders $500 each to cover their travel and time? Or as an organizer pocket the money for all the time and effort I put into this sport? ... no answer is required just something to think about

Marilynn agreed that I could share our my conversation with her so as far as supporting TdN goes... CMA have never been able to provide funding for any of our international team projects and there is a policy that stipulates that they can't even if they had the money. The reasoning behind this (many years ago) was that if funding is available it should first be provided to projects within Canada and which would benefit more of the members. If they were a wealthy organization they would likely do both but they struggle because motorcycling is very splintered in Canada and not everyone supports them. But on further discussion (as I noted before) if additional funds are raised (outside your $80) then: ... the priorities TAC is looking for funding for. They are - support for riders to attend the CMA National Championships support for riders to attend the FIM North America Championships support for riders attending the Trial des Nations. I did make an effort to find support for these priorities but people preferred to support local efforts. I will continue to look for support for these priorities although some times it seems a little thankless. Regards,

It is truly a head scratcher isn't it. Given the size of trials in Canada it seems more like a family feud than 2 warring factions. I truly wish people could just get along which is why as a rider and a promoter I started this thread. Seems that some of the websites you visited have not been updated in a while... From some of the things that Steve has posted in the past it may very well have been assumed that at some point the WTC would take on the FIM designation and need to charge people but 6 years into it that seems highly unlikely. So if the organization has the backing of MCC (which the majority of large motorcycle importers including KTM, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki... etc pay into for every bike sold in Canada) and no real costs why would they charge members a fee ??? The MCC off road council has been very generous in supporting off road riding across the country on many fronts - most notably provincial off road association such as NSORRA. Even if it is all a big trick to get 100s of people riding trials before starting to ask them for money, I'm not sure I see the downside. As it is they are asking for nothing and offering very little but the opportunity to make the sport more accessible for people who would like to try it. On the other side of things, the CMA is asking for money and also offering very little other than international FIM recognition which unfortunately is not worth $80 a year for most of our local riders. I hope the CMA carries on and is successful for those elite riders who want to ride at that level but I also support the idea of having other options... as to the title of this thread why not have both?

That is awesome... when he goes to sell his house he should post it on the local trials forums... trials riders paradise .

As I see it the WTC is more of the entry level into the sport. Once a group of riders or a club gets to the point where they are interested in international competition the CMA/FIM has to come into play. This is why I believe there is a need for both groups. The issue we had locally was that the riders didn't see the value in the CMA so we went for a number of years with no events at all. As Steve points out there are other options besides the WTC, like having events without any insurance typically nobody likes to take full responsibility for these and they don't get much bigger than a few friends riding on their own property or on land without proper permission. You could pay for your own insurance but it is price prohibitive for a group of less than 50 riders or so. Our local group typically donate a few hundred dollars to the TdN team each year. I should note that I asked the CMA about this and they stated that they do not financially support the TdN team as it is against their policy to support events outside Canada... so we give the funds directly to the riders. I tried very hard to come up with a solution that would see our group supporting the CMA in someway, I do believe it is needed but as a small group of lower level riders we could not come up with anything that made sense financially... the local feeling from both riders and sponsors was any support/funds we can raise should stay local to support the sport to help it grow.

I just mean both organizations put on good trials events so as a rider it makes little difference as far as riding the sections. The big difference is as an organizer you have to pay for insurance (either from the CMA or your own insurance, typically $5M liability) WTC provides this for free. In addition if you put on a CMA event all the riders have to pay $80 to join the CMA this goes to the CMA but they are very clear that the money does not come back to the local trials community in any way (I have no idea how much goes to the FIM). All the events we put on here in NS as WTC sanctioned events are free... no membership cost no event cost (and we actually have a few that we pay riders to take part in). The WTC has its own separate rule book... http://www.worldtrialscanada.com/WTCObservedTrialsRules2013.pdf I'm sure the CMA has a rule book as well as I don't think they follow FIM no stop... but can't say for sure as I have not seen it.

Ride both or whatever is available where you end up living... Most places you will only have one choice. It has much less to do with riding events and much more to do with putting on events. As I see it the WTC believes in minimal cost events to get more riders out. The CMA promotes having international FIM status (at a cost)... Both organizations put on great events, so you can't go wrong. BTW we no longer use video tapes in Canada it is all PVR and go with the Poutine with a cold beer to wash it down (life is too short not to enjoy it) !!! just my .02

Seriously... Hey Borus, I hope you realize we truly appreciate all you have done and are doing to support and sponsor the sport here in Canada over the past few years (and me personally last year). Funny enough I had a note from Marilyn (head of the CMA) wondering why the AMA and the Natc get soo much better sponsorship support than the CMA does... Regards, Michael

The Flatland Trials assoc has results and pictures on their facebook page... (link not allowed) looks like a great time was had by all.

Hey Borus, That sounds good to me. Hi Steve, no the WTC does not have membership cards as they cost money... CMA charges $80 per person for their cards and they have clearly stated that money does not go to trials. the only money that would go to trials would be money a sponsor donated with the express instructions it go to trials... not sure anybody has actually done that as when I asked they said they had no money available for trials. I agree nobody really needs anybody... but I kind of like joining a group of like minded people who treat me with respect... maybe you are correct that it all a secret plot of some sort but I will take my chances . Not sure what your question is about the FIM... but no they do not recognize anybody who doesn't send them a cheque... maybe it was rhetorical question?

Yes we are certainly coming from to very different perspectives. You say clubs can buy their own very inexpensive insurance... not sure what you consider very inexpensive... but can't beat the price from the WTC (Free). To be honest I don't use it as I use NSORRA insurance. I helped start the NSORRA a few years ago and it just hit 900 members this year which is pretty amazing for a dirt bike organization here in NS. So yes if you do have a larger organization that you can pull upon for insurance maybe there is no need but I really like that there is that option for anybody who would like to go the free route to start out. It really sounds to me like you are saying we don't need anybody (including the CMA and the CMA doesn't need us) as we are too small... so I suppose it is best we stick with the WTC for the time being and revisit it when we get a bit bigger. Congrats on the Nationals - sounds like a great family trip ! Cheers, Michael

Well... no response on the other thread http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/57211-wtc-vs-cma-why-not-have-both/page-4 hopefully there was some logic seen in it.

Here is a similar... http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/56329-trials-push-bike-for-moto-trials-training/

Getting back to the original question CMA and WTC why not have both ? Answering the following questions may help... These are my own personal answers and should not be considered official views of any particular group. Q: There are certain criteria in order to be classified as an "organization".. Does the WTC have any of them? A: or·gan·i·za·tionˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n/ noun noun: organization; plural noun: organizations; noun: organisation; plural noun: organisations 1. an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc. Not sure what the WTC is missing... there is certainly a body of people whose particular purpose it is to grow the sport of Trials across Canada. Maybe it could be argued we could be better organized but couldn't every organization? Q: They have a website, self appointed championships, and what is if for?? A: They are to help us be better organized by having a website we can publish a standard rule book promote our events and record the results. Regional competition and National Championships allow riders to progress and compete within the organization across our country. Q: What is the end goal here?. A: The end goal is to have legitimate Trials events right across the country that are organized and the results tracked to give the riders a sense of belonging to a national organization. An organization that is willing to support trials riding from coast to coast at little to no cost to the riders. Q Are there are already more than enough events, easy entry to the sport ( that's what clubs are for) ample opportunities to advance ( The TAC is extremely motivated and a main goal). Everything is already in place as Steve F. sees it. Strong clubs, who could all work together with the National Federation building a strong sport for all. A: There could never be enough events IMO. There where actually 3 or 4 years here that we had no events. I would love to see weekly training events and competitions in every province and even separate regions in each province (as most of our Provinces are larger than Countries in other parts of the world). From my experience the clubs are given no support from the CMA if they would like to join the CMA they are faced with a large expense and told they will get nothing in return. If they would like to be considered as a sanctioned event all riders would need to pay $80 a year. If they would like to use the CMA insurance policy there is an additional charge on top of that. For the past few years the CMA has repeatedly told me we are too small to consider joining the CMA and they have nothing to offer us for the money it would cost us. I actually asked if it was okay if we had members join the CMA and use our own insurance the answer it was fine to do that unless we used the WTC policy as they were seen as a competitor??? (hard to believe when Steve sees it as a non-entity). WTC provides free membership a free rule book pleasant and helpful people across the country willing to answer your questions. We get a say in setting the competition rules and the legitimacy of being part of a national group of people following the same rule book. All things that the CMA can provide but at a significant cost. Q: What is the point of the WTC? A: As I see it the point of the WTC is to fill a gap that the CMA fails to see. We need to be supporting local clubs not just expecting them to pay into an organization for nothing tangible in return. At one time there was no other option and the sport went on a great decline as people simply choose not to put on events or compete. This was extremely apparent here on the East coast. I think a great illustration of this was the event in NB last weekend we had 10 riders who had never ridden a trials event before some had trials bikes some shared bikes with people most didn't hand in their score cards... all had a great time! What would the value have been if we told them they had to send $80 to Ontario before being allowed to ride? On the other hand I felt there was value at the riders meeting to be able to say we are following the official WTC rule book, have people sign an appropriate waiver, and hand the land owner / organizer an official certificate of insurance. I did ask the CMA if they had any money to support Trials in Canada and the answer was no. I then asked that if I was to secure sponsors would that money go towards Trials in Canada... The answer was yes the money would be set aside and only used for trials. I then approached a number of sponsors who are supporters of trials in Canada and the resounding response was if you are able to raise money for trials you should keep it local and support growing the sport the way you have been. So that is what I decided to do. CMA does have the FIM status and the TAC is starting to make in roads with growing the sport. It is great to have both organizations as at the national level we need to have that in place but until the CMA can start supporting the grass root riders who just want to get out for few fun legitimate events each year there will continue to be a need for the WTC. As a side note it is interesting to see the growth in both flat track and Enduro riding in Canada since they moved away from the CMA...

I'll take another crack at it on the other thread as it is not specifically to do with just the WTC Championship.

Please see response #4 here: http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/57211-wtc-vs-cma-why-not-have-both/ If you read post #1 on that thread my reason for it was so this wouldn't keep happening every time we post an event... how quickly I forget (sucks to be getting old).