it will in 2006 different (which previously/currently was run by how Stuart C describes it)
the magic idea is that yes you only join one club
but this is highly dependant upon the events you seek to ride being run on the "right" permit! / the permit issuing authority (ie the centre) granting the "right" permit
we silly southern fairy's will be running all our "centre" meetings as "open" - ie you on your Bon Accord MCC membership could come and ride our meeting if you really wanted to.
however you would be able to ride in a club trial unless you were a club member. *Some* centres *may* restrict their centre championship rounds to either centre residents, or centre clubs, etc, etc. So you may need to, still, join many clubs if you want to ride certain events
In trials there is only one type, no "national" grading (apart from that list to get into the British Championship) --> ie unlike MX, RR, etc where it is set in stone. Well there is an international category.
2) The rest of the country
There is a world beyond our centre (ie north of the river) or even (shock horror) beyond the Watford gap!!!
All I know is there are these mysterious things called rocks (strange!) and moors. As well as some very different ways of doing things like marking out sections, classes and gradings --> good luck!
3) More / different host /etc for championship round in the SEC
A quick flick to my list of centre dates (2005) - sc_sec_smc_trials_dates_2005.pdf - and championship rounds (2005) - 2005TRIALSchampDATES.DOC - reveals we in the SEC run 6 separate championships that are combined and mixed in various ways.
1 - Expert, Inter, Novice (11 rounds)
2 - Modern Sidecar (7 rounds)
3 - Pre 67 A-D & Twinshock (8 rounds)
4 - Pre 67 Sidecar (6 rounds)
5 - Youth A & B (8 rounds)
6 - Youth C & D 6 rounds)
Also we run 4 (well 5) combines, host a handful of nationals, have various closed to clubs, wobblers and a very separate 3 round LDT championship
It is up to the Trials Combine (to which all clubs and combines end delegates) to decide who has rounds. off the top of my head i don't know if lots of clubs apply and are rejected ??? I do note that lots of these meeting are traditionally centre rounds, and you rightly raise a "quality" issue.
What is the answer ??? --> could you split it into two championships; one Expert, Inter, Youth A&B and another Novice, Pre67 / Twinshock, Sidecar and Youth C & D. this would allow you to separate it out and run more rounds. BUT a) do the venues allow it, do the clubs want to do this, c) more generally how would more rounds go down with people who do nationals of various sorts
Even then some clubs "get away with" / "pull off" a combined trial doing everything (eg Sidcup Sixty, Gravesend, etc) - is this right, wrong ???
Its a great big debate, one to which i don't know the answer and is very dependant upon countless variable that might not come into line.
Rome wasn't built in a day but change is possible.....
Anyway as for money, and as an exception to the rule as a club we don't do trials for the money by no means!!! Trials is chicken feed compared to the numbers involved in MX and even Enduros. Our club runs British MX championship to do fun small things like trials! Money wise on a per capita basis the money in trials is actually in running large well-attended wobbler trials (minimal costs, work, officials and lots of riders). But then the rest of the trials clubs out there are nothing like Sidcup (the Sidcup Mafia!!!)
again while it would be nice to be like our ex-pat Ishy, and have one rule, as we can see we all disagree on which of the two (three) different options we want and even then how to interpret (when is ceasing forward motion, ceasing forward motion)
even if we (generally riders) could agree here, are we representative of the nation as a whole ??? are we representing everyone one; from youth A-D, sidecars, experts, inters, novice, Twinshocks, pre67 A-D, LDTs, etc, etc
even then, once you've climbed that hurdle the poor volunteers who by and large make up the majority of the observers, are they equipped, trained (or inclined) to cope with yet another change. most often (form what i see) they are very lenient on the stopping issue and don't go into counting time or adding dabs for being stationary
while this may challenge us, the riders (the modern bikes who want to "hop skip and jump" AND the non stop brigade, who don't want to stop), are we really going to bring the observers with us..............
attached is the South Eastern, Southern and South Midland joint trials calender (here sc_sec_smc_trials_dates_2005.pdf pdf)--> and this doesn't include most closed to clubs, and we don't have many nationals down south
at the end of the day people want to put events on, and if there are riders your going to have to clash
some answers to the clashing problem
geographic --> "combines" --> we split our centre into 5 (NKTC, EKTC, SCG, Star, TVTC) and the 2nd Sunday of the month there are 5 trials on which are between centre and club trials
more simply you have one trial at one end and another at the other
classes --> its good to have an expert/inter trial somewhere while a pre65/novice trial is somewhere else
as you can see from the PDF we have centre rounds on vs wobbler trials, club trials, etc
worst case if you try and cap what clubs are doing they'll just sod off and go AMCA or ORPA - no pint in trying to limit but just work out the dates better (which is hard)
good one of my dad and cousin (on my bike) (see No50, the AMC Sidecar)
i would have said hi if i could have found you! , quite a large crowd (for a trial) there (i was whizzing around on a Beta, sticking out like a sore thumb!!!)
You have to use the rules yo your best advantage no matter what they are.
Most people at the start of a section fully intend to try and clean it, but if you have 3 dabs the most important thing is to get out without a 5. I Personally dont care what it looks like as long as it does not turn into a 5. Every single mark counts in trials.
"top up tv" is for people who have a freeview box (ie terrestrial digital in the UK) which has a card reader in it --> ie the old ON digital / ITV digital or some brand new ones. most people have ones without a card reader.
ftp is OK, what about bittorent - easier to do (as far as I'm aware, esp on hosting)... ???
as John Collins has said, we currently have a wide diversity of systems and therefore a move to one won't happen
some people, for what ever reason, want to non stop (TSR 22 and i as Atom Ant says there is an equal cases for allowing stopping with penalties (TSR 22 A).
obviously there is scope for other methods to be invented (call them c, d, e, etc) so you can do FIM if you want to, or do an egg carrying contest, etc, etc (and obviously time and observation events still run under some code ???). if you stop people doing it, as Atom Ant says "Whats stopping me from making my own rules for a club trial?", by imposing one national system then they will just sod off and form an AMCA or ORPA club, which defeats the point of it.
at the end of the day its up to you, in your the clubs, centres, and nationally do decide what method is appropriate for that event / championship. our strength lies in being able to accommodate all!
on another note....
Elvis's post was good and has merit. firstly on the "four" idea - why not .... but on the "ten" being the old "five" as in a "non attempt" i say no, as there is still nothing to stop someone just going in the section and turning round (a five), when the person who has had the courtesy to ask is now going to get a ten .......
the problem between 1,2,3 dabs and 3 (millipede) is perhaps one of not enough classes/routes so that rider that is getting that is not good enough for that route
when i first learnt to wobble i could do most novice routes for 3's but clean the wobbler almost the whole time. its only after a few more rides that i can't start to (vaguely) compete on the novice route
again it also depends on the section layout - if you are needing to do 3 strategic dabs then perhaps the section is too long/ that route is too difficult for that class
some trials at some venues set out a certain way (with certain weather) will be high scoring - now is this good or bad, especially compared to a trial that is too easy and its won by the person who avoided making a silly mistake
depending upon where you are, there are different local events but there are in the main 3 types
Hare and Hound (H&H) - basically a large mx, do as many laps as possible in a timeframe (say 3hours). typically this is less taxing on the brain, favoured by mx'ers. it can be by class, it can be timed by electronics.
proper big time card enduros - this is the real McCoy. a huge course (say 10 miles plus) with different parts that you have time to complete it in. the idea being is you pace yourself - some parts you don't need to go balls out, others are balls out (and you incur penalty points). you have to stop in checks at exactly the right time (not too early or late). you also have various special tests of speed - which a top level can include a grass/cross country test, a mx test and an extreme test (where trials skills can come into play). you find these in proper places like Wales, Scotland, tut north, etc
short course enduros - us poor deprived southern fairies invented these to give us practice of time cards enduros. its more complex as you have to do several laps within each session (laps can be as a short as 3.5 miles).
with reference to trials, the mx rider can be a sheep and follow the line already made by the trials riders can make up time by being able to go round bottlenecks/are able to tackle the harder obstacles better
personally i really like enduros, a real challenging event. don't go straight out and buy a new bike without doing your research first. mx bikes aren't best suited and will need adapting to comply (but sometimes they are allowed). down south where we ride a lot of nagery forestry commission/mod forest we all ride sub 300cc two strokes (as exemplified by the Breckland and John Banks nationals) while if your in proper open enduro country big fourstroke (KTMs mainly) are best suited
for a start don't all go out and s*** yourselves over this
calm down and have a cuppa tea (or )
firstly many clubs/organisers have been doing this for some time - forestry and MOD land has needed a risk assessment for some time
as the many professionals in this field have already explained the whole idea of what "risks" are, is very much in the eye of the beholder.
i wouldn't necessarily say the CofC has to the the risk assessment themselves, the secretary of the meeting or someone else may be better placed to do it - but generally the CofC is "god" / buck stops here - so they will have to sign off on it.
honestly don't make too much of a fuss about as MOD and forestry events have been doing them for some time
as for the quote from dan
Insurances will be void if RA's are not carried out fully.
i would say this first - if the permitting issuing authority (rugby, your centre, SACU, etc) has given you the permit you permission to run the event. at the end of the day risk assessment will be "good practise" just like having a steward and a licenced clerk of the course
on the other hand we in mx and enduro haven't been "forced" (as far as i know) by Rugby/centre/and committee to produce one although i know the track racing committee has had a grass track risk assessment floating about for some years now
on a final point its very much down to your very specific local situation - i know some venues have to have one because of a zealous local authority regularly inspects them for HSE issues (eg Hawkstone park, and others) and as I've already mentioned if you hire forestry/MOD you do one anyway. we've even had to make one up for the police who visit our British championship round - they weren't concerned what was in it, just that you've done one.
again if anyone's got a problem/issue with this please contact someone up the chain of command (eg your centre, the T&E committee, the trials desk at Rugby, etc) don't go cancelling events in a blind panic
a) an awful lot of clubs organise events for the Saturday (and traditionally do so) - we (Sidcup) did a big closed to club, Witley run a big Centre trial, etc
another huge number of clubs, centres, etc hold AGMs, etc on this "spare" date
c) as for not doing anything out of respect or we should do something and donate profits to charity - speaking to various veterans and others the view is divided, but with the "loss" of veterans form the mass participation conflicts WW1 & WW2 its going to be more difficult to maintain the doing nothing line
d) Hook woods was an ORPA event, and several other OPRA events were on. ORPA is the promotions vehicle pioneered by Tony Ford and the late Reg Slack that is utilised by numerous commercial promoters (and a few proper clubs), and in the age of increased commercial promotions of motorsport events it is to be expected. now trails in normally beyond the hope of making money for commercial operators (with perhaps the exception of the world round) but by not allowing charity events (which the Hook Woods event was) have "we" (ACU ***AND*** the AMCA) forced people to go down the ORPA route ????
its a difficult and controversial but nether the less important debate to be had - and one to which i don't see an answer .......
some very good questions which are slightly difficult to answer
first of all the world rounds use one system of marking, we in the UK then alternate between two other different systems (the differences are very subtle but important and make a world of difference)
the standard system world wide is 0,1,2,3,5 and 10
as you say 10 is extremely rare - but only happens if you miss a section. so what most riders do if they don't like to look of a section (too hard, or not enough time left in a time limited trial) they ride in the "begins" and turn around - ie getting a five
5 is essentially a DNF for the reasons you list (and more)
"faults" is an interesting word but thats basically it, you can get none (a clean or zero), one, two or three. if you get more than three it still counts as a three - ie you can millipede your way through a section for a three rather than a five (if you don't breach some very technical rules)
the other areas you highlight are were the confusion lies / and or the ability of the observer(s) seeing the event (but the TV camera may have). in our rules technically you fault (or it could be 5 / DNF) if any part of the bike rests on the ground (ie bash plate)
as for backward motion - this stems from way back in the day when you literary could be stopping at all (due to the bikes), so trials is meant to be non stop. however some very clever guy (someone will name him for me) developed the modern trick style of riding (bunny hoping, etc), but this stops forward motion. hence anther set of rules was created to either allows for this type of very skillful riding and/or to allow it but penalise you for doing it (ie a fault for stopping forward motion). On all counts going back wards is verboten but in practise how you tell this, and the benefit of hindsight / a DVD allows a much different interpretation of the result to be seen
hope that answers your question to an extent and i expect others to come in and correct / modify my answer as its actually quiet a complex topic and difficult and challenging to simplify (reminds me of the offside rule in football)
nah it look like my dad will be the novice on my bike as I'll be up here working --> may change by then (if i was free it would be a good laugh - or millipede run!!!)
as for the others i assume so but i can't actually remember .....
if you want to do both you can proable get away with a BETA alp or something on a novice/pre65 route but toher than that it might get mighty uncomferatable on any spercific trails bike (even with added seat/tanks) for green laneing .......
--> good luck!
do the clubs want to do this, c) more generally how would more rounds go down with people who do nationals of various sorts
)
Membership
in UK Trials Talk
Posted
it will in 2006 different (which previously/currently was run by how Stuart C describes it)
the magic idea is that yes you only join one club
but this is highly dependant upon the events you seek to ride being run on the "right" permit! / the permit issuing authority (ie the centre) granting the "right" permit
we silly southern fairy's will be running all our "centre" meetings as "open" - ie you on your Bon Accord MCC membership could come and ride our meeting if you really wanted to.
however you would be able to ride in a club trial unless you were a club member. *Some* centres *may* restrict their centre championship rounds to either centre residents, or centre clubs, etc, etc. So you may need to, still, join many clubs if you want to ride certain events
hope that is clear (as mud!!!)
rabie :hat: