woody Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) There's maybe two apsects to this class issue - Club events and championship events. For club events I can't see that it matters a toss whether there is a specific class to match a type of bike such as twinshock, pre65, aircooled mono etc. In previous debates, particularly about whether mono Yams converted to twinshocks should be allowed into a twinshock class (no in my opinion) one argument put forward by several people was that it is all about not taking things too seriously and people just enjoying themselves, bums on seats etc, so why not allow the bikes in. My thoughts on that are yes, we're all for more people being able to get out there and ride with their mates, but if it isn't too serious and just about having fun, then what does it matter what class you're riding in as long as you're enjoying yourself. So if you have an aircooled mono for example and your club doesn't have an aircooled mono class what's the big deal. You just pick the route (emphasis on route, not class) that you, or the combination of your ability and the bike that you are using on that particular day feel comfortable with, and ride that route. That means entering as an expert, clubman O/40, novice or whatever and riding that route. You're riding for fun, therefore so what if there is no aircooled mono class. For years back in the 90s I rode my Ossa MAR in club and centre trials and it never bothered me that there was no twinshock class. I just rode it on whichever route I thought applicable at the time, quite often the hard route for a good challenge... Also rode it a couple of times in the Loch Lomond and Lakes 2 day events. I never entered it as a twinshock or asked the organisers for a twinshock class. Just entered on the clubman route and rode against the other clubman. For me it was the enjoyment of riding the bike in those trials, that's all. Now if you're talking of a championship for a specific type of bike (either club or national) then yes, there have to be rules and the correct bikes ridden in the correct classes. The pre 82 (should it just be open as pre 82 rules out cotswold Majesty or RTX for example) and pre 76 classes are a good idea in theory but at the moment there is not enough support either in the ACU Classic, or the Sammy Miller series to warrant it. The ACU Classic has effectively become an O/40 and aircooled mono championship with pre65 and t/s as support, whilst the Miller series seems to be suffering from falling entries (why this should be was asked on another topic a while ago) I think if there was a dedicated championship for just pre65 and t/s run over two routes not one, as the old Sebac and Falcon series used to be, which could again attract an entry of around 100 regularly, then there may be a case for splitting the t/s class as suggested. The championship class could run on the hard route with a championship for pre65 british (including the specials) championship for pre76 t/s and championship for post 77 t/s. On the easier route, the same 3 classes participate but with no championship and if someone on this route is riding what is considered to be a trick pre65 it doesn't matter as there isn't a championship to be won or lost by virtue of a 'cheat' bike. This would once again provide a national series which should cater for riders and bikes of all abilities with riders not feeling disadvantaged because their bike isn't competitive in the series (as happens now - people feel unless you have the latest t/s tackle or a trick pre65 the Classic series is too hard - correctly so as regards pre65 machines) The question is, is there a demand for this type of series again? There was once, but what about now. There are enough pre65 and t/s bikes being bought and they can't all be being bought as investments can they?Also, with the current Classic championship being so well established it would be a bold move by the ACU to break it up. Personally I have no wish to break up the format for the sake of it as a lot of mates have now become used to being able to ride together on the differing types of bikes they have in some good events, but at the same time, it isn't really a classic championship any more. Quite a few riders have jumped from the pre65 and t/s class into the aircooled mono or O/40 class. Maybe the aircooled monos and the O/40 and O/50 classes could transfer to ride an eased route at Novogar rounds and if the dates don't clash some of those riders could dig out there classics again and ride a true classic series as well with pre65, pre76 and post 77 t/s classes. At the moment, in a series that allows all types of bikes, riders take the easier option of riding the more competitive bike. This is why our local pre65 club won't allow twinshocks as the riders will take their twinshock in preference to their pre65 and the number pre65 bikes at the events will decline. Food for though or just not enough support anymore for a dedicated classic series? Edited October 21, 2006 by Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 out cotswolds , rtx and twin shocks fitted with mono parts may be !!! just to keep it pre82 you understand can i have your forks woody ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 tooooo !! many rules, keep it simple, seems to me the problems are good riders on very heavly modifyed bikes making sections ride a lot easyer than there intended to and making the trial look easy,whereas the majority of the entry struggle,and maybe next year the trial gets harder loose's entries and the orginisers have second thoughts about running it in the future. this years classic rounds have been just about right my only criticism being no rounds in wales and the midlands! the sammy rounds have been good when they have been on the road,with one trial spoilt by having the modern sidecar championship. next year hopefully they will seperate the specials from the twin shocks and get the non standard british bikes back into the special class before to many riders go elsewere . aircooled mono,o40,o50 riding the novagar rounds on a easyer route,could be worth a try but if the organizing clubs get the sections wrong in the first few rounds or send these new classes out as section scrubbers for the main class i think it will fail ! at the moment we are all pretty much catered for if you make to many rules you could end up making your own bike ineligible for the events you want to ride in, scottish pre65 for example ! woody please define cheat bike! or was that just a bad choice of words! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I'd made an assumption that most riders on the easier route would be on standardish bikes as most of the better pre65 riders have modernised bikes and would be on the hard route. 'Cheat' description used merely in the context that if someone was riding the easier route on a trick/modified/fiddle/modernised/call it what you will pre65 and winning, other riders on relatively standard bikes would probably moan that they are cheating riding it on the easier route and they should be on the harder route on such a bike. If there is no championship status to the easier route though, then no advantage is gained by having the better bike. They're riding for the enjoyment of taking part, not to win a championship. Where were you today - missed a good Miller round at the Greensmith. Mr Willmore was a bit of a hero riding his Matchless today and was going very well until the second half of the trial. It was a bit of a handful on some sections. Poor sod went over the bars 3 times when the beast bit back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marky g Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 (edited) Sorry guys, a little bit off topic but, how many acu classic rounds are left...been on the acu website but it's not very easy to navigate. pretty sure all the rounds that are local to me are all done. Whats the average entry to a miller round these days?? I entered one on the clee's a few years ago by mistake on an aircooled mono, almost got beat up in the car park...;-) Edited October 23, 2006 by Marky G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 a flying willie truly a horrendous sight and i missed it damm! still i bet he enjoyed the trial more on the matchless than the modified arial he's ridden in the past kinda puts him on a leavel playing field with the rest of the pre unit class good on him ! going back to the oridginal thred introducing all these new classes whose going to police machine eligibility, surly the clubs have enough work to do as you cannot rely on the riders as all there going say is , well me uncle burt used them in 64 so they must be pre65 or some other old chesnut! maybe the ACU could produce a machine eligibility handbook ie pictures of what the bikes looked like when they left the factory ,what dates they were manufactured up to ,even what weight they were, that should sort out the light weight trick bits in the pre65 events, and ensure the specials are in the special class! you only have to look at the pre65 seen to realize what problems lie ahead ie using post pre65 parts, the same is happening in twinshock ie now using mono components, maybe a case for another ACU machine eligibility handbook ! lots of work for someone,any volunteers for this thankless task i won't hold me breath, we as riders have only ourselves to blame!!! in other words we as riders, always want to make our bikes look better,handle better and go better so why should we stop something thats been going on form year dot, maybe a case for the classic rounds to use unmodified bikes who knows, but if we as riders want it, its up to us to find a workable solution both for the clubs and acu to work from! if you want a pre85 class BEST OF LUCK!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Totally in agreement about the ACU need to step in here and produce elegebility rules and regulations. They are the governing body. They should grasp the nettle and produce something. Not much chance of that happening though is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 now that we are on the subject of the acu, how about FIM observing rules - come on acu!!! know doubt i've wasted my breath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Totally in agreement about the ACU need to step in here and produce elegebility rules and regulations. They are the governing body. They should grasp the nettle and produce something. Not much chance of that happening though is there yes and no on one level perhaps yes, "someone" should set he bar for whatever class (by a technical standard), so everyone is singing form the same hymn sheet on the other hand, no the TEC is a 8 man committee trying to cover two wide and diverse sports across the UK (and beyond), how can they enforce some national standard ??? Do we print War and Peace and hand it out to the scrutineers (but you all say "I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Doesn't matter what eligibilty rules are drawn up by the ACU, it still requires club officials to enforce them at every trial and I can never see that happening. The rules are pretty clear for the Miller series but the modified bikes still enter in the normal classes instead of the specials. Club officials are just glad to get entries into the trial they have worked hard to organise and can do without the confrontation of arguing with riders about which class their bike should be in I would guess. Things have gone too far now to reverse. Personally I'm not against the modified bikes, it never bothered me riding a bog standard Ossa MAR against modernised TLR Hondas in the ACU Classic. Generally it is the better riders who have the modified bikes in their efforts to win. Put them all on standard bikes and the same riders will still win. It makes no difference to a lesser rider that the top men are on modified bikes. I could ride my 4RT against Thorpey on his Cub in the Classic rounds and he'd still beat me even with that machine advantage (Thorpey I mean as his Cub is probably better than my 4RT... ) If there were pre76 and post77 classes there would still be modified bikes and as someone has already pointed out, who has the knowledge to say which mods belong in which era. It's an impossible task. The modifying issue aside though, the 2 classes and 2 routes may encourage other riders to bring out their twinshocks. I have a few mates who would ride some ACU Classic rounds on an easier route but they couldn't cope with the single route we have now. On a personal note, If things stay the same I'm still happy as I still get to ride in some good old fashioned no-stop trials, hopefully on the Ossa again if I can get it fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 two routes sounds good but would not want to be the guy trying to find the easy route up avalanche up at the bootle trial scareeee or wot!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Sorry guys, a little bit off topic but, how many acu classic rounds are left...been on the acu website but it's not very easy to navigate.pretty sure all the rounds that are local to me are all done. Whats the average entry to a miller round these days?? I entered one on the clee's a few years ago by mistake on an aircooled mono, almost got beat up in the car park...;-) One classic round left and it is this weekend at Sheffield organised by Hillsborough. One of the best and hardest rounds. One Miller round left also, next month down south somewhere, not sure of exact details as won't be riding it. Last Miller round, the Greensmith (good trial) had about 60 - 70 entries with a fair spread of machinery - british, twinshock, trail and a few sidecars. now that we are on the subject of the acu, how about FIM observing rules - come on acu!!! know doubt i've wasted my breath Wrong topic for that one - no-one on this thread is going to give a hoot about FIM rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marky g Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Cheers for the reply woody, looks like its next year for me then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitley Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Two routes on the classic series would be a good move personally, cause i know there are lesser riders out there who would like to ride more road based nationals, like riders who ride in the specials class and twinshock class in the Miller rounds on the standard route could ride the alternattive route on the acu classic series. I for one would definately support this. Anyone here think this idea should be discussed in the ACU Forum here on TC ? Edited October 25, 2006 by pitley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 ACU forum not alot going on at the moment, seems to me alot of people going on about the acu fee's and the youth events , john collins explaining where your money goes and why , and then in another thread some people are asking the same questions again, so far agree with what john is saying so unable to comment , time to rap up some of these issues and get into the adult classic trials which i think alot of us have been waiting for, seems to me what we want is not going cost !!! head now on block, umbrella ready or is there a way to get a discussion started or do we have to wait ! any ideas!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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