Week 17 - A Case For A Classic Cock-up

[paioli]

Great piece Woody , IMHO the best way forward for the CLASSIC SERIES this certainly tic's all the

right boxes , and deserves a constructed reply i assume from John Collins

[john collins]

Yes - some very good points Woody. I am away from home at present - but will study in more deatil over next few days - and there are certainly some thouights which can be put forward

at forums and when T & T discuss 08.

I think the Rhayder Classic lends a lot of strength to your argument for two routes - certainly the better classic riders enjoy the harder route and it seems to be competative without being silly - and people like myself who do not ride very often -or as in my case past it - can still have an excellent day out on the easier route.

Certainly food for thought - more later.

[rosey]

Well I glanced down this long list of responses and comments..... Maybe I have not taken all things on board, but....

I noticed references to Clubmans Championship... To be honest what a bizzare thought this must have been to have a British Clubmans Championship. It does not make sense does it? Clubmen have club championships all over the country!

One other thing (if I recall correctly) is that the list of winners of the Clubmens championship are not what you would call 'clubmen' standard riders.

Where am I going here... I dunno I guess, but one upon a time there was a motorsport called trials where nearly everybody rode the same route. It was really good (there was also a lot more land available then). Then trials advanced (?) and poisoned itself a bit. I recall the St Davids late 80's what a great trial this was.... Early 90's and nearly all of these good trials went down the pan...what I mean is that in the 80's a good centre runner could ride in the British Championship. Move on a decade.... No chance. For some reason the logic was to make sections to cater for the top one or two.... bu99er them cater for the majority........

..So Rosey..what are you saying? ..... Oh aye.. Cater for the majority of riders that the trials are aimed for. Classics are Classics if somebody goes clean then well done! If a few go clean then so what.. Give the majority a good time and they will be happy and come back the next year.

Just keep it simple! All the different classes (and I mean sub classes) are alienating trials to a few special circuses soon we will have PRE 65, Pre 70, Pre 75 etc....

When I started I looked at stuff like Kickstart and thought I would like to do this... I realise now that people will see Indoors with top talented riders launching into orbit to ascend massive steps.... I think the people now look at them and go wow... but I dont think they think ' Iwant to do it any more, so it is not really promoting this pastime is it?..... Oh dear I'm waffling off topic now!

I have a lot of respect for the people who go out and do the work lying out all these routes. It must be crap when the entry is tiny nad then they stuggle to get observers. However the more classes there are, spread even thinner round the country, at the various trials (British Clubmans, Riders with red boots, riders with white helmets etc etc trials) will make the job even less worthwhile.

[john collins]

Have had a chance to read Woody

[nigel dabster]

I think there is alot of sense in what you and woody say, but feel that again the over 40's seem to be somwhat sidelined. If as you say the classic stays as it is then by entry numbers the over 40's will influence the sections?

Without question there is an ageing population of riders countrywide and if the novogars were slightly easier or had two routes it would give a good national championship for them.

Alternative might be to have the nationals that have two routes like the Jack wood to get an over 40 Championship?

Couldn't the ACU and the organisers make a little more of the existing over 40's success, think this year theres a good battle developing.

As an aside why do the classics have so many rounds? Is this a contributing factor to entries aswell?

[john collins]

Two fair points Nigel - I think the O/40 class/ champ needs a bit more thought as I think there will be varying views.

As to number of rounds - yes - I think we have probably included too many and this certainly needs looking at. Only defence I can offer really is that if we have orgainasiers willing to give it a shot we try to encourage them to do so - and also as I have previously stated - geographically - with more rounds there is a good chance of there being a classic round to ride in close to many people - and this gets people dragging the bikes out of sheds etc - a point both Woody and myself have made.

However I am not sure if these aims have really worked - and at this moment in time I have to admit I think we probably awarded too many rounds.

[woody]

Some good points in your reply John, particularly your thoughts on how altering one series may impact another. Personally, I'd stake my bet on that not happening, or at least not in a negative way.

The Sammy Miller series doesn't really need touching as the format and standard of sections are as I believe they should be - aimed at encouraging riders on more standard machinery out to play - but I think one of the other points you make may well be the reason why the Pre65 class is not so well supported any more and that is the age of the riders. Riders of the more standard or unmodified machines are probably what you'd call closer to the 'purist' and as such they probably tend to be older - at a guess. Perhaps they've been put off by the influx of twinshock and more modified Pre65 bikes and are assuming that the trial is going to be too difficult for them. From the few rounds that I have ridden I'd say absolutely not and the easier route is ideal for the less talented or riders on bigger or rigid machines. So far, the sections have not been influenced by the more capable machinery being entered and I would hope it would stay that way. The better riders on these machines have to accept that the sections are of a more gentle nature and just treat the event as a pleasant day out and an enjoyable ride around a traditional type of trial - Sunday's ride around Rhayader was thoroughly enjoyable and for me, presented the chance to try out a different bike for the first time and see how it went - result was of no importance. Perhaps a piece in TMX promoting the series, giving it another mention and encouraging riders to get out and give it another go would help encourage riders in the Pre65 classes - there is ceretainly no shortage of Pre65 machinery out there (look at the Scottish Pre65, Isle of Man, etc.)

The Classic series is a more difficult one to analyse. I certainly think that 2 routes as a starting point will open the door for more riders on Pre65/twinshocks and I'd bet again that it shouldn't have an adverse impact on the Miller rounds, particularly if more Pre65 riders can be brought back into that series. Hopefully a good number of riders would be able to support both. I agree with what you say about riders who originally supported the series way back now being fifteen years or so older but there are still a good few who haven't yet made 50 (not quite there yet but it's closing in) some of whom are still quite handy and there are some younger riders taking part as well now, so I think there is a good basis on which the series could grow again with the 2 route format.

The o/40 class is the one that poses the problem as it is the best supported so far. I've no personal wish to boot that class out and I see no reason why they can't co-exist, I just think it would be nice to see more of the older bikes out there, with preference being given to them should entry levels ever demand. I still refute the claims that the Classics are now aimed at the o/40 modern bikes - I say again, look at the results over the last few years and very often the Pre65/twinshock winner has been the outright winner or second overall. I think the attraction of this series is down to what John described as the term Classic trial - referring to the events resembling the old traditional type nationals of years ago run under no stop rules - the o/40 age bracket means that those riders would have ridden those type of trials when they were current and are enjoying doing so again now. The puzzle is how to get them off the modern bikes and back onto the old 'uns, as many of them have old bikes but, understandably, take the easier option of using the modern bike instead. Still riding the same trial, still enjoying it, just a more reliable bike maybe...? Although some of them are good enough for high placings in the Novogar...

As far as there being too many rounds I'd say not and for this reason. Modern bikes are obviously well catered for up and down the country, every weekend. Pre65 bikes are well catered for with 3 National championships on the go (I think) Pre65 Scottish, Inter Centre Pre65, Isle of Man Classic (emphasis on Pre65, limited twinshock entry) plus several more established events like the Talmag, Eastern Thumpers etc. What have the twinshocks got - one series which is the Classic so I would hate to see that cut down from its present number - there is nothing else. Sure, there are other events that cater for twinshocks but that is the only dedicated national series, no Scottish, no Inter Centre. So please, think again before reducing the numbers. If the event is a good one, riders will support it unless work/holiday or whatever commitments keep them away. The only thing I'd like to see is rounds dedicated to the solos and not piggy-backing on sidecar events. I've nothing against sidecars but the sections they use aren't any good for the classics. The only one that is, is the Welsh Trophy when run by Rhayader. Obviously this all depends on which clubs apply for a classic round but if the clubs that incorporate them with sidecars are going to continue to apply, then they must make an effort to put on suitable sections and not use the classic classes just to swell the entry. I have to be honest here and say I'm not going to this weekend's round as it isn't worth the travelling. Been before too many times and nothing changes.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing what comes out of all this and thanks to John for looking at ways to take the series forward.

[paioli]

Question to John Collins and Woody how about restricting the o40 and o50 classes to aircooled mono bikes,

2/3/4 thousand pounds cheaper than a modern bike, and at 25 years old must qualify as a classic by now !

pre75 and twinshock any age rider, o40 and o50 on aircooled mono's and back to four classes, and no need

for a modern bike to be considered when marking out a acu classic championship event! just a though

[nigel dabster]

I think that the current riders are over 40, so the clas would not be any bigger.

I personally changed from bultaco to sherco for the simple reason that I was fed up with the maintainence and preparation the older bikes required.

Simply aritficially changing classes will not create a demand, surely.

Do you think the current over 40's want this?

[old trials fanatic]

Question to John Collins and Woody how about restricting the o40 and o50 classes to aircooled mono bikes,

2/3/4 thousand pounds cheaper than a modern bike, and at 25 years old must qualify as a classic by now !

pre75 and twinshock any age rider, o40 and o50 on aircooled mono's and back to four classes, and no need

for a modern bike to be considered when marking out a acu classic championship event! just a though

Sounds like a good idea to me. Gives a boost to the aircooled mono class, which is inherently a good idea and potentially good for the sport. Plus takes away one of the, IMHO, big negatives in the Classic rounds the modern bikes. Dabsters point about having to maintain and fettle the older bikes may or may not be valid, it is to him so fair enougn, but the TY250 is so reliable that it needs little maintenance, probably less than a modern bike, so thats that objection shot down. The big plus point is that a TY mono doesnt lead to radically different sections than those required for a twinshock or pre65. OK much easier to ride and massages your ego if thats your thing but all in all Paioli a damn good idea and better than some of the other suggestions and as such deserves serious consideration by the ACU and organisers.

If you have a modern bike and like riding it great. So why not go and ride it in a modern trial??????? It's not as if there is a shortage of modern trials is there? Or is it that the real reason is that the riders just want easier sections????

[nigel dabster]

My point (objection) is shot down only if I were going to go out and buy a Ty, which I am not, and I doubt if many others (if any) would do like wise, just to ride a few rounds of the Classic.

I would imagine not many of the over 40's (again if any) who compete in the current classics have an aircooled mono anyway, why would they buy one, just to do a few trials a year?

The principle is ok but imho it just would kill off the series almost immediately. Are we not all agreed that the classic can't survive without the modern entries, can it?

The argument that there are modern trials is a spurious one as there is NOT an over 40 championship anywhere except the very poorly announced and promoted Novogar one, where the sections are generally too hard for 95% of over 40's.

Just the same argument applies to the twinshocks and pre 65's surely?

[dale]

Question to John Collins and Woody how about restricting the o40 and o50 classes to aircooled mono bikes,

2/3/4 thousand pounds cheaper than a modern bike, and at 25 years old must qualify as a classic by now !

pre75 and twinshock any age rider, o40 and o50 on aircooled mono's and back to four classes, and no need

for a modern bike to be considered when marking out a acu classic championship event! just a though

Sounds like a good idea to me. Gives a boost to the aircooled mono class, which is inherently a good idea and potentially good for the sport. Plus takes away one of the, IMHO, big negatives in the Classic rounds the modern bikes. Dabsters point about having to maintain and fettle the older bikes may or may not be valid, it is to him so fair enougn, but the TY250 is so reliable that it needs little maintenance, probably less than a modern bike, so thats that objection shot down. The big plus point is that a TY mono doesnt lead to radically different sections than those required for a twinshock or pre65. OK much easier to ride and massages your ego if thats your thing but all in all Paioli a damn good idea and better than some of the other suggestions and as such deserves serious consideration by the ACU and organisers.

If you have a modern bike and like riding it great. So why not go and ride it in a modern trial??????? It's not as if there is a shortage of modern trials is there? Or is it that the real reason is that the riders just want easier sections????

In my case i do ride a modern in modern trials -but my mates ride twinshocks,so either change bikes or mates?Set the sections to suit the intended classes/bikes and if there is a class for me -0/40 monos to ride in a classis trial i will, I thought a part of trials was the crack with your mates,but if the sight of a modern bike upsets some - trials has a sad future

[jordi]

OK guys..

I have supported the Classic series for about 9 years now and ride all rounds every year, holidays excepting!

Have they got harder over this time? NO.

In fact I think the reason the ACU sent this letter that rappers refers to is that the Phil King just plain got the sections wrong this year and took a lot of flack for it at the end from the older bikes.

Now I am a few years into my 50s and live in the South East. What I want and mainly what the Classic series gives me is a single lap,20-25 mile road based trial with rock stream sections. A group can travel together, some moderns. some twinshocks and have a good day out. If there is a problem with the series it is always when a sidecar round runs with it.

And finally to answer the latest suggestion, no I do not want to ride an aircooled bike

[andy m]

Now I must admit I am slightly out of my depth here and I dont want to sway off the subject but going back to dales comment re the sight of a modern bike putting people off reminded me of a trial at Clyro on New Years Eve. I was then the treasurer of the club holding the trial (HCTC) am no longer for personal reasons, but I was helping sign riders on that day and Woody was there. Anyway as it was the time of year many riders were glad to get out and have a ride etc. The O 40 mono rule was being broken L R & c, but who cares , not me folk are out for a ride and a crack with their mates etc.(its xmas) EXCEPT some members who take the classic word and covet it(this is a tiny club, not a series etc) had some faces on them like slapped asses, added to that the pre trial speech did not gain friends among the mono riders. Same club now has O50 mono at its last trial, so dale yes they are out there sadly and they are not going to change.

PS. as an outsider following this subject I think the a/c mono idea sounds a good un, but what do I know.

Edited June 16, 2007 by bo drinker

[woody]

Not really sure about moving o/40 and o/50 classes to aircooled monos, only because I honestly don't know how much interest there would be in aircooled monos - doesn't seem to be that well supported at the moment in the Classic, numbers roughly the same as twinshocks. As I've said before, I think the main interest in this series for riders on modern bikes is not that they are interested in the championship itself, as in reality there are only a very few out of the regulars with a chance of winning it, rather it is the trials themselves that they are interested in. By their very age, these are the sort of events, single, big lap events (or 2 in some cases but still a long ride around) that they would have ridden in their youth when road based events were commonplace and consequently they are the type of events they enjoy and are now having the chance to ride in again. I'd also guess that most haven't got any interest in the older bikes of whatever type, so that could be one potential problem, they'd maybe just go and ride their modern bike somewhere else, not buy an aircooled mono.

I still don't really know how many riders on twinshocks and Pre65 can be pulled back into this series either in all honesty. Seems to me now that a lot of people are buying twinshocks more for the status of owning one (is there any, it's just an old trials bike...) or as an investment, rather than to ride. They disappear off ebay quickly enough with some crazy prizes being paid for junk in a good few cases, but not many of them seem to make it out into trials, so where do they all go - from someone's shed/garage to someone else's?

This is why I think dual routes would be a good starting point, see what affect it has in terms of increased entries (or not...) and in which classes, and use that information to shape the future of the series. The mix of classes doesn't really bother me, it allows mates with interests in different eras of bikes to get out and ride some good (in most cases) events. I'd just like to see more twinshocks out there and not just more Hondas and Fantics, but a wide ranging variety from right across the twinshock era, as these are the bikes that I have the greatest interest in. It's how it used to be in the early years of the series. On a purely selfish basis, I would also like to see 2 routes as I have some mates who would also be able to come and ride too, whereas at the moment they won't as they think the secions will be just a bit too stretching.

So I don't really know what the solution will be be to finding the happy medium of what people want from this series but if it were my decision I'd start with the dual routes, publicise it and then wait and see the reaction in the following rounds. Riders will vote with their feet, if it's what they want they'll be there. I'd also get the sidecar trials to cater properly for the solos or remove them from the series and finally, re-iterate the rule that a twinshock should be just that, one that was a production bike, not a mono with 2 shocks stuck on it (and I only mean that rule for this series - in club events people can do what they like, I couldn't care less)