Reply Re Brit Champ Master Class

[john collins]

Re - Masters Class.

We have not yet finalised the format. The T & E Committee meet on Nov 27th and will finalise dates/Championshi[ps etc - we usually then try to arrange a meeting with the Championship orgainisers and discuss things.

I have to say the Masters class does at present look very doubtful.

We had thought it was a good stepping stone - and sort of intermediate course for those who did not wish to tackle all the Championship sections - but wished to try some. Equally those Champ riders now getting older - or not wishing to tackle big steps etc because perhaps they do not ride/train/practice so often - would have a good class to drop down into.

I actually thought it would be a good competative class with those moving up -or down fighting it out in the middle! - but it has not worked out this way.

Also as someone has just correctly stated the danger is you will just have a very large Expert Class - with the top half dozen good riders clogging up the top end and taking the awards BUT it has to be admitted that the Masters class has nor received anywhere near the support we thought - and if riders have voted with their feet - ( or backsides) we will have to take notice - and if the class is not needed - so be it.

[nigel dabster]

Perhaps there is some way to "encourage" winners like Brice and Lampkin J to upgrade?

[shadwell]

I understand your thoughts, and yes it isn't well supported. But very little effort goes in to the master route as its either Championship or Expert, its not as thought another route has to be layed out.

I personally think it can't do any harm keeping it in the series,

Also upgrading the previous years class winner to the next class should be considered, Its the same story in all championship series specially the British and the Novogar its the same winners all the time.

Once they've won it one year they shouldn't be eligible for points the next.

Tough job John and you know you won't please everyone, put keep it up you are one of the true ACU officials that think about everyone, and not just Dougie !

[spud]

I understand your thoughts, and yes it isn't well supported. But very little effort goes in to the master route as its either Championship or Expert, its not as thought another route has to be layed out.

I personally think it can't do any harm keeping it in the series,

Also upgrading the previous years class winner to the next class should be considered, Its the same story in all championship series specially the British and the Novogar its the same winners all the time.

Once they've won it one year they shouldn't be eligible for points the next.

Tough job John and you know you won't please everyone, put keep it up you are one of the true ACU officials that think about everyone, and not just Dougie !

In my centre, if a rider wins more than three events during the course of a season, but does not win the championship he/she would still have to upgrade to the next class the following season, or ride for no award. Like wise the winner of the championship would also have to upgrade, or ride for no award. These rules do not apply to my centre's equivalent Master class route.

[john collins]

Some fair points and we will look at them - but I still have to say that the Master class for just a couple of riders is doubtful.

I am certainly for it - and we will actually introduce the idea in Welsh Champ next year - not the same I know - but we still see it as a chance to let riders "dip toe" in water of hardest route - wthout having a hiding all day.

Real reason why I have replied however is on the idea of " making" people upgrade after they have won this or that - Please be careful - not only in Brit Champ - but even at the lowest level I have always been very concerned about making someone ride a hardr route - this actually means you are making them ride a route which they may ( or could later say) they were not accomplished enough to ride. I am very dubious about this - and my own view is you must never force anyone on to a course unless they do not wish to ride it.

The easy method of course is to make a rule that anyone who wins this or that in one class - must upgrade to win awards/points etc - but can still ride in the lowere class if they wish - but on np points/award basis.

We did look at this for Expert class before - and wil look at the idea again

[gasgasmonkey]

i find all this realy amusing.red rose bc trial 1982 120 riders, one route , one winner , one champion!.

[nigel dabster]

Yes and I rode a couple of british rounds in 1982 as well, but things move forward and maybe I can do alot more now 20 odd years later but you can rest assured the Dabster won't be having an assault on the British Champs in 05, definately not the experts and not the masters either. I am not that capable times change, but surely jim Lampkin and bricey are up to the masters? They WON the experts so if they can't cope with the harder route let them ride no award experts.Simple. Same with Tom Sagar on the novogar, that series should be easier as there are 3 championships above it.

On that how come the Allan Jefferies has got a round again when it was ridiculously hard this year, and the quality of the west of england was very poor aswell. Is there no judgement on the quality of the trials?

[bikespace]

From what I hear the Welsh Championship is doing away with what is currently called the non-expert class and creating the Masters class which rides half championship and half clubman sections. (I know the Welsh is not on the same level as the British and wouldn't claim to be).

Is the Championship class likely to become much harder for the sections they don't have to worry about the Masters???

I suppose what I'm asking, if for instance someone won the non-experts should they be moved up to the Championship class, even if they are probably on the way down rather than up.

The non-experts was pretty damned close this year, and I think the winner would be hard pushed to manage it again, especially with some of the Youth that are moving up to non-experts.

So...is this bloke likely to die on the championship route or should he stay non-experts for no points maybe?

I think this nearly fits in to the topic???

[eddy]

I observed at the our round of the British Champs at Addingham this year. Jim Lampkin did not look to be as focused this year as previously, maybe he has had a busy year with Dougie. If he is not 100% up for the masters I see no problem with him doing the easier route, but as champion he probably should not be able to compete for points in the experts the following year.

There did not appear to be much wrong with the format, decent entry, good crowd and spectacular sections.

Rode plenty of champ rounds years ago. Did the Jefferies with Mika's old man riding next to me and never saw his expression change all day.

Memories of Steve Saunders on the RTL at the Red Rose making those evil slippery rocks look like a main road bring it all back.

Great days, but the sport has moved on so we should encourage innovative thinking by our governing body.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Rode plenty of champ rounds years ago. Did the Jefferies with Mika's old man riding next to me and never saw his expression change all day.

Memories of Steve Saunders on the RTL at the Red Rose making those evil slippery rocks look like a main road bring it all back.

Great days, but the sport has moved on so we should encourage innovative thinking by our governing body.

Has it though eddy, Steve Saunders was the best rider in the country at that time and won the championship riding a course that 100 other lads could ride.

Now the best competing will still win the championship but only a dozen or so will attempt to ride, would you say this is moving on?

[jrsunt]

How about for a one off to see how it would work, going back to one route no stop, (It works in the nationals)!! The Lochaber club had a go at making some of the sections the same for all routes, and it worked. Say the points go down to say 25th place. Its got to be better than the current format, It seems the series has got lost.

Riders shouldn't be made to upgrade, as the jump to the next class is just too much, who wants to be made to do something they feel is beyond their capabilities, Its dangerous above all! Cant see anyone in the experts wanting to go up. The experts class is a class jo public can relate to, real riders from their local clubs who ride week in week out, promoting the sport and the bikes.

But we need the championship type sections to help the up and coming make the world championship grade, its a good stepping stone.

[woody]

I agree that on no account should riders be forced to ride at a level they think is too difficult for them

[shercool]

Well said.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Some good points there Woody.

This is a good topic and I think it applies world-wide, when governing bodies address a problem they focus on the individual problem and often miss the cause or the reason why the problem arose in the first place.

If riders are taking too long in a section a simple and obvious cure is give them less time, instead of getting into the reasons for why they take so much time like are the sections too long or so difficult they have to be ridden like three individual sections.

There is a big conflict of interest at the top in championship events and by making them close to impossible to all but a few gets rid of competition so the format of ridiculously hard sections works well for the top factories and top riders.

Just taking the form of the top riders riding the SSDT, the highest ranked world rider in the event is more often the event winner than not!! but is put under a lot more pressure by more riders because of the type of section.

I don't think the British championship or any other national championship should be decided on sections with a difficulty level the same as the ssdt, but I do believe there is a level of section difficulty that would still take marks of the top riders and allow more riders to compete.

Probably halfway between the champ class and expert class, do all the sections need to be killers to find a winner?

In the years I have followed trials the biggest changes are section difficulty and amount of riders taking on those section, cost to promote the events for fewer riders, and the decline of events and spectator participation.

The question the governing bodies should be asking is what is best for the sport, not individual riders.

Could the old Brittish national trials sort a winner of the championship, they used to [has any rider ever cleaned one?]

Why not have a few rounds of each and see what the results are.

[eddy]

Replying to Ishy's earlier post, the sport has moved on, but perhaps not as everyone would like it.

Maybe we should leave the SSDT out of any debate regarding section difficulty. Making it 'no-stop' was a master stroke and has brought the very top guys nearer to the good centre experts, as well as giving the clubman a chance of a fighting three. However while it is no doubt the best trail ride most of us are ever likely to enjoy, it is becoming more and more detached from the trials of 2004.

When I talk about encouraging innovation - who in the early 80's would guess that 20 years later we would see National trials with 75% of the entry riding an easier 'clubman' course.

I was at the White Rose this year and (despite the weather) had a cracking day out over the 'easy' sections. If there was only one hard route I doubt that the club would get above 50 entries.

Nostalgia's not what it used to be eh Ishy?